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Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

luchog said:
You are aware of how long golf fairways are, right? That this distance is such a tiny fraction of a percent of the total length it may as well not exist?

Men in general would have the power advantage, but that's only an advantage on the longest fairways. Golf is much more a game of precision.
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Lol. Surely you mean only in extreme cases. Or does this only occur in the sport of golf?
 
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You'd think, with the rise of genetics as a science, that we could look at someone's genome, see if they were XX or XY and predict something about them. And being all scientific, we could separate out these differences as being the result of biology, accept them as having no moral or cultural taint, and move on. Rather than this, it appears we will do our best to insist, despite the genetic variance, that it's all cosmetic and there's no significant difference at all.
 
Fudbucker said:
Women aren't even close to men when it comes to driving distance. The LPGA top average distance is 271. In PGA, it's 315.
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Remember when Anika Sorenstam was dominating the women's tour, she did a couple of men's events.

She didn't embarrass herself by any means, but then again, she was never competitive, either, and IIRC, she never made a cut.

The main problem she had was distance. While all the men were able to use 7, 8 and 9 irons for their approaches, she was using 4 and 5 irons, where she didn't have the control.
 
jeffas69 said:
If you wish to consider them experts that is fine. I will still contend that their decision to allow female to male competition "without restriction" is not "evidence" that taking testosterone to bring a female body into the "normal" range for boys would not give an unfair advantage over some of the boys. Not at the high school level anyway. Why not have the rule where the bottom of the range is the limit for competition. If Mack's levels are at the bottom of the range I would let him wrestle with the boys.
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Would you hold all the other boys to the same standard?

Or are you saying that he should be singled out for a special handicap because he's trans?
 
Why not have a transgender league? Seems that would be the most logical option. If this is such a large scale issue.
 
quadraginta said:
Would you hold all the other boys to the same standard?

Or are you saying that he should be singled out for a special handicap because he's trans?
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No the other boys would not get special exemptions to use supplements. If you want them all held to the same standard then no one using supplements including Mack would be allowed to compete. That is fine with me if that's what you think it should be.

Why would it be a handicap if he is at the bottom of normal levels? I thought there was no advantage unless they were outside the range.
 
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quadraginta said:
Why do you insist on the bottom?

Why not the middle?

Why not anywhere that falls within that range?
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I am not insisting on anything. I am on no athletic santioning body. I am only giving my opinion on what I believe to be the most fair solution.

I have already given answers to all of your questions. I have asked several questions of you that you have never answered. You have stated before that there is no physical advantage in taking supplements as long as they are within a certain range. You have suggested that the evidence for this is that many athletic sanctioning bodies are using the IOC guideline that does not have any restriction on supplements for FtM trans athletes. You seem to now be acknowledging that some kind of advantage exists.

I have given two choices in my previous post. I will not be changing my stance on the issue again to accomodate further or answer the same questions again. Pick one of the two or answer the questions or provide clear and compelling evidence or ignore me. Remember I have no dog in the fight. I don't actually make the rules. I have not tried to shame anyone into changing their view. I have also already stated that Mack wrestling with the boys would have been better than what happened.

I also do not agree with all the people who accused or harrassed him. But, please also remember that Mack was not forced to wrestle the girls. He could have bowed out graciously or continued to fight in court to wrestle with the boys.
 
luchog said:
Do you know what the difference is between the "women's" and "men's" tees is on most golf courses? About six to twelve feet.
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Not even close. Even the next-shortest tee is usually several hundred yards further for the entire course.

Golf Course total yards

http://www.torreypines.com/torrey-pines-records.asp

Torrey Pines (hard to read the image)
Championship Tees: 6,647 yards
Regular Tees: 6,326
Red Tees (or ladies): 6,118

Bay Hill Score Card
Championship: 6,586
Front tees: 5,192

That's a difference of about 5 football fields between Champ and Front tees.
 
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Argumemnon said:
Hormones I get, though body structure might have something to do with it as well (larger muscle mass and bones, for instance), but I don't see how socialisation helps beyond the pretense of pain tolerance.
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Depending on the age at which HRT is begun, the muscle mass and bones will adjust to be reflective of the target gender.

Attachment points and physical configuration of the hips and abdomen, however, can't really be addressed. That does lead to some differences in the location of center mass and differences in gait and stance that can't be addressed through HRT, nor even through surgery.

But that's about it, as far as I understand.

*** HRT is the appropriate term, even when it's not being used in terms of transgender. My goddaughter has Kallman's syndrome, and will begin HRT to trigger puberty this year. Even though it's 'replacing' the hormones that she should be producing naturally for her gender, it's still referred to as HRT.
 
Anyway... all bickering aside, there ARE physical differences between men and women.

Some of those differences are hormonal - muscle fiber, bone density, etc. are all affected by the levels of estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone in our bloodstreams, especially the levels during puberty. Those difference can be addressed to at least some degree though HRT.

Some of those differences are structural - our hips and pelvis are different, the placement of some of our internal organs are different, the positioning of muscular attachment points are different. Those differences can't be addressed by hormones.

Proposal: A transgendered person undergoing HRT should be allowed to compete on the basis of their target gender. A transgendered person who has not begun HRT should compete on the basis of their physical sex.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Proposal: A transgendered person undergoing HRT should be allowed to compete on the basis of their target gender. A transgendered person who has not begun HRT should compete on the basis of their physical sex.
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Question: what about people who began this treatment after becoming an adult?
 
Argumemnon said:
Question: what about people who began this treatment after becoming an adult?
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HRT will still affect musculature and bone density. My understanding is that it won't affect it as completely as if it had been begun during puberty, but I'm also not an expert by any means.

You can't come up with a perfect solution. An adult undergoing HRT would still compete alongside the target gender. Maybe there's some nuance around how long they've been doing HRT. I mean, a F-to-M transitioner might be at a significant disadvantage if they're three days into HRT and competing against males. I have no opinion on where to draw that line, it's well outside my expertise.
 
Emily's Cat said:
HRT will still affect musculature and bone density. My understanding is that it won't affect it as completely as if it had been begun during puberty, but I'm also not an expert by any means.

You can't come up with a perfect solution.
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No, I know. But I'm concerned that, even though they are not numerous, male-to-female athletes, if they transitioned after puberty, would easily outclass their competition. That's been my beef with the idea since the beginning.
 
Argumemnon said:
No, I know. But I'm concerned that, even though they are not numerous, male-to-female athletes, if they transitioned after puberty, would easily outclass their competition. That's been my beef with the idea since the beginning.
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IOC rules allowing TG Athletes have been in place since 2003 and we are yet to see an influx of Transwomen Athletes swooping in and taking all the medals. In 2016 they changed the rules to allow for pre-operation TGs to compete as well as post, which was part of the 2003 rule. We'll see if that makes any difference shall we?
 
Argumemnon said:
Who said anything about an influx?
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Well if your fears are right then surely the results we should see in the next few Olympic games is for Transgender women to be taking all the top spots, whereas currently they aren't. Would that not be an influx?
 
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