Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[PhantomWolf]

No, I meant exactly what I wrote: some people say we're talking about teenagers, others that we're talking about young children. When the latter was said, I responded to that, and then was told the former. So which is it? It's hard to have a discussion if we can't even agree on what the discussion is about.

I actually think you are confused because what was being talked about was them transitioning through the use of puberty but with HRT to move them to their target gender. As most people go through puberty between 9 and 13 you are thinking that we are talking about children when we're discussing puberty, but with Transgender children instead of progressing to puberty at age 9, they are put on puberty blocking medication until they are 15-16 and can determine if they really want to transition, or if they want to go off the drugs and undergo a normal puberty. Does that help? No-one will transition a kid under 13 and few would do so under 15 with HRT, at most they will counsel them and have them live as the target gender to see if that is what resolves the issues the child is having (thus confirming the diagnose), and then when they reach 15 or 16 they can decide for themselves to transition or not.

Edit to add. From a ethics POV it is accepted that having children who identify as transgender actually live and be treated as the target gender without undergoing any HRT is actually of greater benefit to the child than not doing so, and the earlier that this is done the better. It leads to a happier, more stable child, a better long term transition when they are ready, and lower overall suicide rates, so far from being abusive, it could rather be argued that not treating a child as the gender they identify with is really the form of abuse.

 

[Belz...]

I actually think you are confused because what was being talked about was them transitioning through the use of puberty but with HRT to move them to their target gender.

Are we talking about the OP or not, then?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Are we talking about the OP or not, then?

The person in the OP was diagnosed as a child and is now 17. He started transition two years ago, when he was 15. This means that the likelihood is that yes he was most likely puberty suppressed until he was 15 and choose to transition and started on the Testosterone boosters to under go puberty as a boy rather than a girl.

ETA: The article itself is a bit confusing about exactly when he was diagnosed, but the lack of any breast development, which would be pretty obvious by the time he was 15, and show in the photos of him, would also indicate that it was pre-puberty and puberty was delayed.

 

[MuDPhuD]

All of the above. Men are just a lot physically stronger than women. They're also faster and have greater pain tolerance and healing capacity. Testosterone is a big factor there.







luchog, please. It's a well-established scientific fact and no amount of ideology will make it go away. There's nothing controversial about what I said.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_physiology

Regarding pain tolerance, the experience of many health care workers is that women generally tolerate pain better than men. The larger more muscular the man the more surprising their very low tolerance for being stuck with needles or passing kidney stones. We explain this among ourselves by considering that many women have had to experience childbirth, a very painful experience which seems to modulate later painful experiences. I have not seen any actual studies to support this position, or the converse which you have espoused. I'd love to see any evidence you might have that men have higher pain tolerance than women.

There is no difference in healing between men and women that I am aware of.

 

[MuDPhuD]

With regard to whether the individual in the OP, a male transgender, should be allowed to compete against males, even though he is taking testosterone, why not follow the lead of the IOC?
http://pdfs.journals.lww.com/acsm-c...VEFGETr61JAiA4=;hash|CKQTKdanwPwL01hs54MyPg==

 

[jeffas69]

With regard to whether the individual in the OP, a male transgender, should be allowed to compete against males, even though he is taking testosterone, why not follow the lead of the IOC?

Because he is taking testosterone. The IOC is not infallible.

 

[quadraginta]

dup

 

[marplots]

Apparently the professionals in the sports industry as far as FtM TGs taking therapeutic levels of HRT while competing do not share your concern.

Hormone Replacement Therapy seems like the wrong identifier. Hormone Therapy sounds more correct.

 

[quadraginta]

Because he is taking testosterone. The IOC is not infallible.

Not exactly just the IOC.

In much the same way as clinicians and politicians have struggled with how to integrate transgender individuals, so has competitive sport, especially transwomen athletes. In this respect, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) was a groundbreaker when it convened an expert panel in which I participated. The panel met in Stockholm in October 2003 and developed recommendations — “The Stockholm Consensus” — that were adopted by the IOC's Executive Board in May 2004 (9,13). These recommendations called for inclusion of male-female (M-F) and female-male athletes so long as they met explicit criteria, including gonadectomy and completion of anatomic changes consistent with their professed gender followed by a 2-yr period during which they received hormonal therapy “appropriate for assigned sex” and “in a verifiable manner.” In addition, these athletes would have to demonstrate that legal recognition of their reassigned gender/sex identity had been received in the appropriate jurisdiction.
The Stockholm Consensus, or some version of it, was subsequently adopted by a number of the sport-specific international federations, many of which conduct events within the summer and winter Olympics. Importantly, these include the International Amateur Athletics Federation (IAAF) for Track & Field, the International Tennis Federation, and the Association of Boxing Commissions. Some still require participation based on birth certificate, such as the Federation Internationale de Volleyball. In the United States, The Stockholm Consensus has been adopted by USA Boxing, USA Gymnastics, USA Track & Field, and USA Sailing. A few federations, such as USA Triathlon, simply require adherence to the United States Anti-Doping Agency rules, which require a therapeutic use exemption (TUE) for use of exogenous testosterone, while some simply permit transgender athletes to compete in the gender with which they identify — for example, the US Soccer Federation and USA Swimming.

Also, there was this;

Acknowledging advances in transgender hormonal therapy and limited access to surgical therapy, or at least provision of insurance coverage in some health care systems, the IOC's Medical and Scientific Commission convened a follow-up meeting in Lausanne, Switzerland, in November 2015. On this occasion, there was a larger and more diverse group of experts, including a transgender athlete. Again, I was among those who participated. This meeting resulted in updated guidelines which were in place, at the discretion of the component sports federations, for the 2016 Summer Olympics in Rio de Janeiro (7). The new guidelines eliminated the requirement for legal recognition as well as the requirement for surgical anatomical changes, replacing this with a requirement for male-female athletes that serum testosterone levels be maintained below 10 nmol·L−1 (288 ng·dL−1) for at least 12 months before competition and remain below that level throughout the period of eligibility. Female to male transathletes could compete “without restriction.”

​

Apparently the professionals in the sports industry as far as FtM TGs taking therapeutic levels of HRT while competing do not share your concern.

Perhaps you are privy to some evidence which they are not in possession of which clearly documents the advantages conferred upon these individuals at such a level of exposure to the HRT.

Would you like to share it. That might help those of us who think that the 'ick factor' and other prejudices are more responsible for the position you are taking than any clear and compelling evidence.

 

[quadraginta]

Hormone Replacement Therapy seems like the wrong identifier. Hormone Therapy sounds more correct.

Perhaps. If you like playing word games.

The terminology is widely recognized and accepted within the medical community. I see no particular reason to challenge the phraseology. The meaning is clear.

But if it helps make you feel better about it, I suspect it is because the hormones being prescribed are replacing the levels of those which the patient's body would produce in the absence of such therapy, both lowering some and raising others to achieve the normal levels of the target gender.

I see no reason to question the use of "replacement" in such a context.

 

[Belz...]

Regarding pain tolerance, the experience of many health care workers is that women generally tolerate pain better than men.

The experience of science is the opposite.

I have not seen any actual studies to support this position

And apparently you've not seen actual studies to support your position since you cite anecdotes.

 

[Cavemonster]

The experience of science is the opposite.

While you're correct that studies show a greater pain threshhold and a greater tolerance for Males, the likely culprits are socialization and hormones, both factors for which trans men would be closer to cis men.

 

[Belz...]

While you're correct that studies show a greater pain threshhold and a greater tolerance for Males, the likely culprits are socialization and hormones, both factors for which trans men would be closer to cis men.

Hormones I get, though body structure might have something to do with it as well (larger muscle mass and bones, for instance), but I don't see how socialisation helps beyond the pretense of pain tolerance.

 

[jeffas69]

Not exactly just the IOC.

Apparently the professionals in the sports industry as far as FtM TGs taking therapeutic levels of HRT while competing do not share your concern.

Perhaps you are privy to some evidence which they are not in possession of which clearly documents the advantages conferred upon these individuals at such a level of exposure to the HRT.

Would you like to share it. That might help those of us who think that the 'ick factor' and other prejudices are more responsible for the position you are taking than any clear and compelling evidence.

Your appeal to authority is in no way evidence of anything. Perhaps you could cite the actual clear and compelling evidence that tells me I am wrong in my assumptions.

There is also no way for me to provide evidence to counter your silly assumption that I might be suffering from prejudice other than my personal assurance that it is not the case. I do not have any problem with young people suffering from gender disphoria taking the treatment and living out there lives among us. I just do not think that they should be competing in athletics if the treatment gives them an advantage over any one. I would have had much less of a problem if this case had resulted in him competing with the boys, but if the therapy got him on to the team over another boy who was not taking anything, then surely you can see where I would have a problem. I can just as easily assume that you and all of these sports authorities are suffering from some kind of new "cis-phobia." Do you have any clear and compelling evidence to suggest that I am wrong in that?

 

[luchog]

He is right. These two pages should give you an idea about what he is talking about:

And, again, you're comparing extremes, which is what world records are, not comparable weight/skill classes. But that's pretty much expected by now, so I'm not even going to bother trying to argue this anymore. It's quite clear that pretty much no one is willing to acknowledge that there is any overlap between male and female physical abilities. Women are clearly the "weaker sex", and should always be treated as such, got it.

 

[jeffas69]

And, again, you're comparing extremes, which is what world records are, not comparable weight/skill classes. But that's pretty much expected by now, so I'm not even going to bother trying to argue this anymore. It's quite clear that pretty much no one is willing to acknowledge that there is any overlap between male and female physical abilities. Women are clearly the "weaker sex", and should always be treated as such, got it.

OMG. Now I am a suspected misogynist? Hyperbole and shaming is not going to convince me either. Do you really believe I do not acknowledge any overlap between male and female physical abilities. My wife would literally kick my ass if I believed or expressed that tripe. Yes world records are an extreme example of my assertions. Go ahead and check out some high school record books if you wish. I believe you will find very similar results.

 

[Belz...]

And, again, you're comparing extremes, which is what world records are, not comparable weight/skill classes. But that's pretty much expected by now, so I'm not even going to bother trying to argue this anymore. It's quite clear that pretty much no one is willing to acknowledge that there is any overlap between male and female physical abilities. Women are clearly the "weaker sex", and should always be treated as such, got it.

You clearly aren't going to bother with it anymore since you opted for such an obvious strawman.

If the average man is stronger than the average woman, the weakest man stronger than the weakest woman, the strongest man stronger than the strongest woman, and a man of the same weight class as a woman still stronger than her, then is it really misleading to say that men are stronger than women?

Is it really so ideologically unacceptable for you?

No one said that there's no overlap. However, weight classes aren't going to cut it. You'd need a more complex "skill class" involved, like a "ladder" system or one like Chess, in order to properly rank people for competition. I suspect it'd be discouraging for many women. Why do you hate women?

 

[luchog]

OMG. Now I am a suspected misogynist? Hyperbole and shaming is not going to convince me either. Do you really believe I do not acknowledge any overlap between male and female physical abilities. My wife would literally kick my ass if I believed or expressed that tripe. Yes world records are an extreme example of my assertions. Go ahead and check out some high school record books if you wish. I believe you will find very similar results.

All records are examples of extremes. My comments were not about extremes, they were about eliminating sex differentiation in favour of weight/skill classifications. Every single post trying to discredit that idea has resulted to using extremes to claim that it's not possible, which is implicitly denying the possible existence of overlap.

If overlap is possible, then my assertion is valid. I've yet to see anyone manage to "debunk" my assertion without resorting to extreme examples.

No one said that there's no overlap.

That is strongly implied by your resort to extremes and "averages" to say it couldn't be done.

However, weight classes aren't going to cut it. You'd need a more complex "skill class" involved, like a "ladder" system or one like Chess, in order to properly rank people for competition.

Which, if you'd been paying attention, instead of going off on knee-jerk ranting against the idea, is what I've been saying all along.

I suspect it'd be discouraging for many women.

Why? Are their feelings too fragile?

Why do you hate women?

I'm not the one claiming they're inherently incapable of competing with men.

 

[Belz...]

All records are examples of extremes. My comments were not about extremes, they were about eliminating sex differentiation in favour of weight/skill classifications. Every single post trying to discredit that idea has resulted to using extremes to claim that it's not possible, which is implicitly denying the possible existence of overlap.

Now, that is called a lie, since I provided with a general case of men being physically stronger. That's why we say stronger on average. It's because we're not discussing extremes.

Of course overlap is possible. It's just that women would rarely appear in any competitive event. Why would you want that?

 

[Belz...]

That is strongly implied by your resort to extremes and "averages" to say it couldn't be done.

First of all, if I'm covering both extremes and averages, where's the problem? And second, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say or imply that it was impossible, only that it was inconvenient and also not what we usually want.

Why? Are their feelings too fragile?

No but like most of us I suspect that women wouldn't train for the olympics if they had essentially no chance to get on the podium.

Take this example: there are "e-sport" events involving video game competitions, and although there are plenty of women (fewer than men of course) in the running, when they're compared all together, out of the top 100 players or teams in most games, you'd probably get one, maybe two, female ones. If you throw them all together in a single event you're essentially having a sausage party. If, as most people, you want women to have a shot at winning something, then you segregate the two sexes or genders or whatever and have two tournaments. Otherwise why would women bother at all?

You're simply not thinking clearly about this issue, and are too busy building strawmen designed to shame your peers here to contribute contructively.

I'm not the one claiming they're inherently incapable of competing with men.

Nor I. Perhaps if you could stop reacting to opposing views as if we're the enemy you'd have more fruitful discussions.