General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[CaptainHowdy]

The quote you attribute to Germar Rudolf is apparently from a Jewish professor M Wolfsohn, cited in a court document published by Rudolf himself: Stuttgart Verdict (see pages 38-39). Holocaust Controversies blog falsely attributes it to Rudolf, but you can see from the quotation marks on the original (double quotations to introduce the quote from Rudolf on the second last line of page 38 and a single quotation with no corresponding end-quote mark on the last line of page 38) that this is not so. Several "deniers" are Jews, in which case they are usually called "self-hating" rather than "anti-semitic".

Thank you. Never mind my previous question.

 

[A'isha]

Where is that quote from?

Thank you. Never mind my previous question.

You probably should have kept reading.

 

[dudalb]

I don't think I've ever seen a Holocaust denier that wasn't also an anti-Semite.

I actually have;they were the kind of fools we have all encountred on the Internet who will buy into ANY theory if it is "Edgy" and "Daring" and "Anti Establishment" enough. They usually grow out of it fairly quickly, however.
But the whole "The Establishment is Lying to You" line is one that Heavy Duty Holocaust Deniers stress very heavily to attract the support of the those will buy into almost any theory that "defies the Establishment". "The Winners Write History" is another line the Hard Core Deniers use to lure in the unsuspecting.

But they are a small minority of Deniers.the overwhelming majority are Jew Haters,no doubt about it.

 

[smartcooky]

Dr. Freud, what do you think of smartcooky's sentence in bold type above?

I sink dat shmartcooky ist displaying a repressed antisemitism because he conziderz ze Jews to be among ze enemies of ze state.

Very insightful Dr. Freud. I would add that smartcooky unconsciously believes the Holocaust was justified. After all, all States punish "enemies of the State" by defining treason as illegal. If Jews are enemies of the State, then of course they should be rendered harmless.

Very aztute obzervation Captain Howdy!

Thank you.

You are velcome.

So you think I am an anti-semite because I say that the Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by the millions. That is some kind of word twisting IMO. Your feeble attempts at bush psychiatry aren't funny but they are pathetic.

I suggest you the read the sentence again, this time with your mind and your eyes open.

FACT: The Nazis considered the Jewish race to be enemies of their state.

FACT: The Nazis did not just target Jews for extermination, they also targeted Romany people for extermination (an inconvenient fact that torpedoes your worldview and which you continue to hand-wave away)

FACT: The Nazis also targeted the mentally deficient and the physically impaired for extermination (another inconvenient fact that you continue to handwave away).

 

[dudalb]

So you think I am an anti-semite because I say that the Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by the millions. That is some kind of word twisting IMO. Your feeble attempts at bush psychiatry aren't funny but they are pathetic.

I suggest you the read the sentence again, this time with your mind and your eyes open.

FACT: The Nazis considered the Jewish race to be enemies of their state.

FACT: The Nazis did not just target Jews for extermination, they also targeted Romany people for extermination (an inconvenient fact that torpedoes your worldview and which you continue to hand-wave away)

FACT: The Nazis also targeted the mentally deficient and the physically impaired for extermination (another inconvenient fact that you continue to handwave away).

They also targeted tens of millions of Slavs for death.Not quite extermination, because they needed to keep some Poles and Russians for slaves,but IMHO close enough to planned genocide for government work....

 

[smartcooky]

They also targeted tens of millions of Slavs for death.Not quite extermination, because they needed to keep some Poles and Russians for slaves,but IMHO close enough to planned genocide for government work....

When there is no further need for a war effort, their need for slaves diminishes. I have no doubt whatsoever that, had the Nazis won the war and been allowed to continue with their genocide, they would not have stopped with Jews, Romanies and Slavs. Once they were all gone, anyone who was not did not match their imagined Aryan ideal of racial purity would be marked for extermination.

 

[dudalb]

When there is no further need for a war effort, their need for slaves diminishes. I have no doubt whatsoever that, had the Nazis won the war and been allowed to continue with their genocide, they would not have stopped with Jews, Romanies and Slavs. Once they were all gone, anyone who was not did not match their imagined Aryan ideal of racial purity would be marked for extermination.

The actual General Plan East called for a massive reduction of the Slavic population in Poland and Russia West of the Urals, but even after the war the plan foresaw a need for some Slavs as serfs, to do the dirty work. They mentioned the Spartans and the Helots as a model.
But agreed that the Nazis probably eventually would have had the extermination of anybody who did not fit their idea of an Aryan on their agenda.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

So you think I am an anti-semite because I say that the Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by the millions. That is some kind of word twisting IMO. Your feeble attempts at bush psychiatry aren't funny but they are pathetic.

I suggest you the read the sentence again, this time with your mind and your eyes open.

FACT: The Nazis considered the Jewish race to be enemies of their state.

FACT: The Nazis did not just target Jews for extermination, they also targeted Romany people for extermination (an inconvenient fact that torpedoes your worldview and which you continue to hand-wave away)

FACT: The Nazis also targeted the mentally deficient and the physically impaired for extermination (another inconvenient fact that you continue to handwave away).

I don't say you're an antisemite because say that Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by millions. I say you're an antisemite because you say that those millions of people were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They weren't.

Look it up. The Holocaust wasn't every bad thing that happened to people living under the Nazi regime. The Jews were not just one of the groups singled out for extermination. There weren't six million Jews and five million non-Jews slaughtered during the Holocaust. There were six million Jews slaughtered.

Prefacing your lies with FACT in all caps and a colon doesn't make it true.

You should also stop saying "Jewish race" when you talk about the Jewish religion.

 

[trustbutverify]

The quote you attribute to Germar Rudolf is apparently from a Jewish professor M Wolfsohn, cited in a court document published by Rudolf himself: Stuttgart Verdict (see pages 38-39). Holocaust Controversies blog falsely attributes it to Rudolf, but you can see from the quotation marks on the original (double quotations to introduce the quote from Rudolf on the second last line of page 38 and a single quotation with no corresponding end-quote mark on the last line of page 38) that this is not so.

As you now understand...nonsense.

Several "deniers" are Jews, in which case they are usually called "self-hating" rather than "anti-semitic".

When massive populations and power centers continuously attribute the very worst characteristics to tiny, vulnerable and often terrorized minority groups for thousands and thousands of years, scapegoating them for every single problem those societies encounter... these minorities will begin to internalize those vicious smears until many of them experience self-humiliation, guilt and shame. Some will even turn against fellow members in an effort to dissociate themselves from the attacks from societies at large. Sometimes this very real and common phenomena is referred to as "self-hate".

There is no such thing as a non-Jew-despising Holocaust denier.
For all practical purposes, the terms are synonymous.

 

[trustbutverify]

Thank you. Never mind my previous question.

And never mind the false information given to you.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't say you're an antisemite because say that Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by millions. I say you're an antisemite because you say that those millions of people were slaughtered in the Holocaust.

Your conclusion bears no relationship to your supposition. This is known as a "non-sequitur"

They weren't.

This is only true if you subscribe to the outmoded and outdated idea that "The Holocaust" exclusively refers to the extermination of Jews.

I don't, and just because I don't does not make me anti-Semitic.

Look it up

I have.

There are sources that give the narrow definition, and sources that give the wider definition. Its not your right to say which is correct, nor your place to decide which definition others use.

Prefacing your lies facts with FACT in all caps and a colon doesn't make it true.

Perhaps not, but as inconvenient for you as it might be, those facts are nonetheless, facts.

You should also stop saying "Jewish race" when you talk about the Jewish religion.

"For more than 100 years, both Jews and non-Jews have been trying to find out whether Jews are a religious group, a people or even a race. Some were motivated to use this information as a basis for discrimination or even murder, others to boast about supposed superior intellectual abilities and a disproportionately large number of Nobel Prize laureates."

Even Jewish information sources such as the one I just quoted (cited below) seem to accept that there are certain aspects of the Jewish people that make them more like a race than a religion, while there are other aspects that would indicate the opposite might be true.

http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jews-A-religious-group-people-or-race

So, the jury is out on that particular topic!

 

[Ivanesca]

Regarding the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial of 1963, he states that in the Frankfurt trial the prosecution had consisted entirely of "Jewish bloodhounds."

Well, that's not anti-Semitic at all! How unfair of people to think that of poor Germar!

bahahahahahahahaha!

It looks like we now have more proof that Rudolf (and the idiot defending him) is completely ignorant and worthless. As has been pointed out before, anyone who even thinks or suggests that the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial (or for that matter any west German trial) was either "pro Jewish" or the instrument of a "conspiracy to defame Germany" is out of their minds, or worse yet, deliberately engaged in falsehoods. As mentioned previously, most of the German Judiciary in the decades after WWII were heavily staffed by ex Nazis, and because of the important role West Germany played in the USA's cold war strategy, they were completely free to disregard the IMT's statutes and instead follow the German Criminal code before and during tue Nazi Era. This resulted in the courts more often than not being on the side of the defendants and issuing lenient sentences. The Frankfurt trial was no exception: contrary to Rudolf's bovine faeces about the Frankfurt prosecution team "consisting entirely of Jewish bloodhounds", it was remarked in the coverage of this trial that the prosecution was by and large indifferent to the trial, allowing the defense to dominate the narrative and gain lower sentences for their clients.

Eric Hunt was right. Deniers do hide evidence that doesn't fit their claims, either because they are ignorant of the actual evidence and go by their preconcieved notions alone, or because they're deliberately lying. Rudolf's statement quoted in the verdict is an example. The Frankfurt Auschwitz trial and other West German trials prove absolutely that there was no "hoax" or attempt to fabricate the Holocaust. The Courts were on the side of the defendants, and in some cases even abused the Jewish witnesses. Zundel, Faurisson, Staeglich, Graf, EtienneSC, Mondial and now Rudolf have all lied and misrepresented these trials because the actual reality and actual policies of West Germany disprove the hoax and eliminate all possibility of the evidence for the Holocaust being "fabricated". Eric Hunt was right.

Rudolf is a liar. Earlier in this thread, he was shown to have lied and misquoted Samuel Gringauz, much like Eric Hunt did with Heinz Rosenberg in his video. It appears that Rudolf lied about the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial as well. He's a serial liar, and garbage. Unlike Eric Hunt who accepted the truth and denounced his lies, it doesn't look like Rudolf can do the same.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't think I've ever seen a Holocaust denier that wasn't also an anti-Semite.

I've seen quite a few that claimed not to be. None that stood up to the evidence, though.

I think David Irving said he wasn't, but then came around to anti-Semitism. You know, after the Jews persecuted him so much.

 

[Ivanesca]

As you now understand...nonsense.


them for every single problem those societies encounter... these minorities will begin to internalize those vicious smears until many of them experience self-humiliation, guilt and shame. Some will even turn against fellow members in an effort to dissociate themselves from the attacks from societies at large. Sometimes this very real and common phenomena is referred to as "self-hate".

There is no such thing as a non-Jew-despising Holocaust denier.
For all practical purposes, the terms are synonymous.

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. It also explains why there are Asian people who sympathize with White supremacists (for example, Tila Tequila).

Once more, the self styled pretentious "intellectual" shows himself to be not only ignorant of basic history, but basic human behaviour. Only idiots become Holocaust deniers, present company included especially.

 

[Tolls]

I don't say you're an antisemite because say that Jews were not the only ones slaughtered by millions. I say you're an antisemite because you say that those millions of people were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They weren't.

Take that up with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II.

 

[smartcooky]

Take that up with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

and with Yad Vashem, the World Holocaust Remembrance Centre - Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust.

http://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about/nazi-germany-1933-39/non-jewish-victims#narrative_info

About the Holocaust: The Non-Jewish Victims of Persecution in Germany

The Nazis considered certain groups to be a socio-racial “problem” to be expurgated from the German nation. Victims included Sinti and Roma, homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and the disabled, some 200,000 of whom were murdered as part of the Euthanasia Program.

 

[dudalb]

THe USHMM does have exhibits on the non Jewish/Roma victims;they did a special exhibit on the mass murder of Soviet POW's by the Germans a couple of years ago.
They also had a special exhibit on some of the Japanese atrocities like the "Comfort Women".

 

[CaptainHowdy]

and with Yad Vashem, the World Holocaust Remembrance Centre - Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust.

http://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about/nazi-germany-1933-39/non-jewish-victims#narrative_info

non-Jewish victims of PERSECUTION. Not non-Jewish victims of THE HOLOCAUST. Note the difference.

If you want to go with the expansive definition of the Holocaust, go right ahead. Lord knows there are enough pop-historians who buy into the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust that Simon Wiesenthal made up to give non-Jews a reason to care about the event. I hope you're not one of the people who was upset that Donald Trump didn't mention the Jews on Holocaust Remembrance day, what with Jews being just one of the groups of innocent civilian persecuted by the Nazis.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

THe USHMM does have exhibits on the non Jewish/Roma victims;they did a special exhibit on the mass murder of Soviet POW's by the Germans a couple of years ago.
They also had a special exhibit on some of the Japanese atrocities like the "Comfort Women".

So now the Holocaust includes atrocities committed by the Japanese?

 

[A'isha]

non-Jewish victims of PERSECUTION. Not non-Jewish victims of THE HOLOCAUST. Note the difference.

Ummm...not only does that specific link detail the mass murder of various groups of non-Jews, the previous section of Yad Vashem's capsule history of the Holocaust talks about "the persecution of the Jews".

Lord knows there are enough pop-historians who buy into the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust that Simon Wiesenthal made up to give non-Jews a reason to care about the event.

Are you for real?

I hope you're not one of the people who was upset that Donald Trump didn't mention the Jews on Holocaust Remembrance day, what with Jews being just one of the groups of innocent civilian persecuted by the Nazis.

What part of "Jews were the primary but not the only victims of the Holocaust" are you having trouble grasping here?

Christian Gerlach, hardly a "pop historian", opened his recent book, The Extermination of the European Jews, by discussing the terminology of the Holocaust, noting that "'Holocaust' (derived from the Greek holocauton, or burned sacrifice) has a religious connotation unbefitting of the event it is supposed to refer to, and users of this term may mean by it either the persecution and murder of Jews alone, or Nazi German violence against any group more generally."