General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[smartcooky]

Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust. Your Uncle saw the conditions suffered by all prisoners in German camps at the end of the war. Most of the prisoners he saw in those camps were not Jewish. Most of the dead bodies he saw were not Jewish. He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed. Your Uncle liberated concentration camps. He didn't liberate any of the death camps. The death camps were all in what is now Poland and were liberated by the Soviets.

Utter crap.

Around 50,000 people were murdered at Bergen-Belsen... this is just a few of them

And you think these people were not victims of the Holocaust because they weren't actually gassed to death with Zyklon-B gas in Poland. So, that makes what the Nazis actually did to these people OK does it?

The Holocaust isn't just the wholesale gassing of Jews, its the whole raft of inhuman treatment of what the Nazis called "undesirables"... Jews, Gypsies, the physically handicapped, and the mentally deficient.

► The gassing of people in gas chambers
► The use of people for inhuman medical experimentation
► the working to death of slaves

People with your callous attitude are a disgrace to humanity.

 

[MikeG]

Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust.

At least you accept that the Holocaust was a thing. What was the Holocaust, and what were its results? What were the gas chambers for?

...Most of the prisoners he saw in those camps were not Jewish. Most of the dead bodies he saw were not Jewish....

Oh well then, that's OK is it?

You have no way of knowing what SC's uncle saw, BTW, nor the identity of the bodies, but don't let that stop you making claims of "fact".

He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed.

No, they'd probably been incinerated by then.

Your Uncle liberated concentration camps. He didn't liberate any of the death camps.

So no killing took place at any of the concentration camps then. Interesting. You have no interest in facts, do you.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Utter crap.

Around 50,000 people were murdered at Bergen-Belsen... this is just a few of them

[qimg]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/JREF/Bergen-Belsen-April1945.jpg[/qimg]

And you think these people were not victims of the Holocaust because they weren't actually gassed to death with Zyklon-B gas in Poland. So, that makes what the Nazis actually did to these people OK does it?

The Holocaust isn't just the wholesale gassing of Jews, its the whole raft of inhuman treatment of what the Nazis called "undesirables"... Jews, Gypsies, the physically handicapped, and the mentally deficient.

► The gassing of people in gas chambers
► The use of people for inhuman medical experimentation
► the working to death of slaves

People with your callous attitude are a disgrace to humanity.

If you subscribe to the all inclusive definition of the Holocaust whereby every bad thing that happened to people during World War 2 is "the Holocaust," then you are correct. I'm more narrow in my definition. The Jews were the only people singled out for extermination. So the Holocaust was a Jewish tragedy and nobody elses. That doesn't mean that the deaths of millions of innocent people don't matter. It's just that they aren't part of the Holocaust.

The Holocaust took place in eastern Europe. That's where all the death camps were. The Final Solution was considered a done deal by the end of 1944. The gas chambers at Auschwitz were blown up and the camp was evacuated in January 1945. Thats when the Holocaust ended.

The conditions in the camps in April 1945 when the British and Americans liberated them were not the result of Nazi Jewish policy. Everybody suffered in the camps. It doesn't make sense to say that if twenty prisoners starved to death and two of them were Jewish, that those two were starved by the Nazis as part of the Final Solution while the others starved to death because there was no food. If the Nazi policy in 1945 was to same as it was in 1942-3, why were there any Jews left alive at all?

Sorry if you're offended by my strict adherence to exact definitions. I prefer my history to arrived at through rational analysis. People like you who weep for the victims of the Holocaust when they see a picture of the British pushing a pile of emaciated bodies into a pit with a bulldozer are a disgrace to scholarship.

 

[Tolls]

I think you might have forgotten the gypsies.

 

[catsmate]

I think you might have forgotten the gypsies.

And homosexuals, intellectuals, Esperanto speakers et cetera.

 

[smartcooky]

If you subscribe to the all inclusive definition of the Holocaust whereby every bad thing that happened to people during World War 2 is "the Holocaust," then you are correct.

No I subscribe to the wider, and now universally accepted definition of The Holocaust, as per that given in the Encyclopaedia Brittanoica

"Holocaust, Hebrew Shoʾah, Yiddish and Hebrew Ḥurban (“Destruction”),

The systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II.

Included in that definition is

► The wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, the mentally deficient and the physically handicapped in the death camps.

►The use of Jews, Gypsies, the mentally deficient and the physically handicapped for inhuman medical experimentation.

► The enslavement of Jews, Gypsies and other undesirables as in the manufacture of goods and materiel for the German war effort.

I'm more narrow in my definition.

Then you are about 50 years out of date.

The Jews were the only people singled out for extermination.

Incorrect. Romany people were also singled out for elimination.

The Holocaust was a Jewish tragedy and nobody elses. That doesn't mean that the deaths of millions of innocent people don't matter. It's just that they aren't part of the Holocaust.

The "six million" figure used for Jews killed during the Holocaust includes deaths attributable to beatings, starvation, street executions, lethal experiments, deaths in concentration camps, overwork in forced labour and forced relocations. While the Nazis marked the Jews for complete extermination they were not all just gassed and they were not the only ones gassed. The Nazis used whatever means were available. Further, many non-Jewish victims also died in concentration camps by gassing, lethal experiments, starvation, overwork in forced labour, or beatings, but a greater number died due to the Nazi's aggressive tactics in rounding up their victims for relocation.

The Nazis tried not just to annihilate all Jews, but they targeted all other enemies of the state. Every Jew was to be wiped out, and that millions of non-Jews were also killed goes to show their determination to eliminate anyone who could even remotely be considered an enemy of the state.

Current estimates based on documents from Nazi war records, and official government documents of various countries, place the death toll of people murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust as conservatively over 15 million non-combatant people, perhaps as many as 26 million.. The exact figures will most likely6 never be n known

 

[Aepervius]

No they didn't. Approximately 60,000 German Jews fled to Palestine between 1933 and 1939. In January 1933, the Jewish population of Germany was 523,000, meaning the Jews who escaped to Palestine were just 11% of the German Jewish population.

The Nazis then proceeded to start murdering the ones that were left in Germany, killing almost three times as many of them as escaped to Palestine before the Allies toppled the Nazi regime.

Plus all the Jews that the Nazis murdered in all the countries they invaded, of course.

Not even counting the one that some country (France) gleefully and freely sent to die in trainloads.

 

[dudalb]

I see that Truthist did not last one week here.
Dammit, I am sick and tired of the Mods taking our chew toys away.....

 

[Border Reiver]

And now he's run back to whatever forum he came from and is bragging how we were so afraid of his facts and arguments that we had to ban him.

 

[dudalb]

And now he's run back to whatever forum he came from and is bragging how we were so afraid of his facts and arguments that we had to ban him.

It's SOP for the White Power Rangers.

Unless he was a Troll, pure and simple, which is a possibility.

 

[abaddon]

And now he's run back to whatever forum he came from and is bragging how we were so afraid of his facts and arguments that we had to ban him.

That alone is interesting. Nobody has any idea who he/she/it actually was. If one considers that it was an ego exercise then the OP expected...what?

A: Everyone here would immediately recognise him, being a famous person? Well, I can only speak for myself, I harbour suspicions, but nobody can identify.

B: Spam bot. Possible, but I doubt it.

C: Attempt to drive web traffic.

D: Genuine. ROFL

E: Deluded. I am not a doctor. There is no way for me to make that call.

F: Poe. By definition there is no way to make that call either.

 

[smartcooky]

truthist actually reminded me of one of Jay Utah's funny quips regarding conspiracy theorists.....

"Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed."

 

[EtienneSC]

Here is a recent Germar Rudolf essay on the Aktion |Reinhard camps that in effect is a response to Eric Hunt's remarks on the subject on his questioningtheholocaust site:
One Single Survivor

 

[trustbutverify]

Here is a recent Germar Rudolf essay on the Aktion |Reinhard camps that in effect is a response to Eric Hunt's remarks on the subject on his questioningtheholocaust site:
One Single Survivor

It's funny how every denier also turns out to be a Jew hater:

If the Holocaust is seen as a unique collection of lies, then the sole pillar supporting international Judaism's legitimacy will collapse. The idol of substitute religion will disintegrate. The possibility of extorting more billions from Germany on account of its alleged obligation will likewise collapse. The possibility of obligating America to eternally rescue the Jews from new Holocausts through endless donations of money will likewise collapse. World sympathy for the greatest liars and swindlers in the history of mankind will likewise collapse. Europe's second attempt to establish a lasting enclave in Palestine against the will of the Arabs, similar to the crusades, will likewise collapse. And finally, the future Arabia, which will be unified and self ruling without Jewish, American or European occupiers and colonial powers, will develop irresistibly. This explains why the Jews and Jewish dominated media and politicians everywhere defend these (Holocaust) lies and repress the prophets of truth by all means possible.

What a coincidence.

 

[A'isha]

I don't think I've ever seen a Holocaust denier that wasn't also an anti-Semite.

 

[EtienneSC]

It's funny how every denier also turns out to be a Jew hater:

What a coincidence.

The quote you attribute to Germar Rudolf is apparently from a Jewish professor M Wolfsohn, cited in a court document published by Rudolf himself: Stuttgart Verdict (see pages 38-39). Holocaust Controversies blog falsely attributes it to Rudolf, but you can see from the quotation marks on the original (double quotations to introduce the quote from Rudolf on the second last line of page 38 and a single quotation with no corresponding end-quote mark on the last line of page 38) that this is not so. Several "deniers" are Jews, in which case they are usually called "self-hating" rather than "anti-semitic".

 

[A'isha]

The quote you attribute to Germar Rudolf is apparently from a Jewish professor M Wolfsohn, cited in a court document published by Rudolf himself: Stuttgart Verdict (see pages 38-39). Holocaust Controversies blog falsely attributes it to Rudolf, but you can see from the quotation marks on the original (double quotations to introduce the quote from Rudolf on the second last line of page 38 and a single quotation with no corresponding end-quote mark on the last line of page 38) that this is not so. Several "deniers" are Jews, in which case they are usually called "self-hating" rather than "anti-semitic".

Okay, let's look at page 38 of that PDF.

And in a letter to attorney Herzogenrath-Amelung concerning Juden and Auschwitz, the accused does not express himself in a roundabout way. In October 1992, the attorney had sent him an article by journalist and law professor G. Werle, which had appeared in the periodical "Neue Juristische Wochenschrift" ("New Juridical Weekly Magazine."). The defendant, who had already received the article from Philipp, responded with a very emotional letter dated 31 October 1992. Regarding the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial of 1963, he states that in the Frankfurt trial the prosecution had consisted entirely of "Jewish bloodhounds."

Well, that's not anti-Semitic at all! How unfair of people to think that of poor Germar!

As for that chunk of text being a supposed quote from a Holocaust historian, a look at the German original reveals that the actual quote is

"Der jüdische Geschichtsprofessor M. Wolfsohn schrieb am 15.4.1993 in der angesehensten deutschen Tageszeitung, der Frankfurter Allgemeinen: '... Diese Dejudaisierung des Juden-tums durch ... die religiöse Entleerung bewirkte, daß die jüdische Geschichte, ... und nicht mehr die Religion jüdische Identität stiftet. Die Juden benötigen deshalb den Holocaust als allgemeines und, daraus abgeleitet, Deutschland als besonderes Symbol der Sinnstiftung.'

Wenn sich der Holocaust als einzigartiges Lügengespinnst erweist, so zerbricht die einzige Säule, auf der das internationale Judentum seine Daseinsberechtigung aufbaut. Es zerbricht das Götzenbild einer Ersatzreligion. Es zerbricht die Möglichkeit, von Deutschland wegen seiner angeblich ewigen Schuld Milliarden zu erpressen. Es zerbricht die Möglichkeit, Amerika auf ewig zu verpflichten, durch unendliche Hilfegeschenke die Juden vor einem neuen Holocaust zu retten. Es zerbricht in der Welt jede Sympathie für die größten Lügner und Betrüger der Menschheitsgeschichte. Es zerbricht der nach den mittelalterlichen Kreuzzügen zweite Versuch Europas, in Palästina auf Dauer eine europäische Enklave gegen den Willen der Araber zu errichten. Es naht schließlich unweigerlich die Zukunft eines geeinten, selbst-bestimmten Arabiens ohne jüdische, amerikanische oder europäische Besatzungs- und Kolonialmächte.

Das erklärt, warum die Juden und jüdisch dominierten Medien und Politiker überall in der Welt mit rattenhafter Wut die Lüge verteidigen und die Wahrheitsverkünder mit allen Mitteln verfolgen."

In other words, that entire section that trustbutverify [EDIT: Andthe Holocaust Controversies blog] quoted is not, in turn, quoted by Rudolf from Wolffsohn's article in FAZ, but is, in fact, Rudolf's own words.

 

[EtienneSC]

Okay, let's look at page 38 of that PDF.

In other words, that entire section that trustbutverify quoted is not, in turn, quoted by Rudolf from Wolffsohn's article in FAZ, but is, in fact, Rudolf's own words.

I see that you're right. the translation misses out the relevant closing quote marks. The original is here: Original Verdict
Point conceded. Criticism of HC blog withdrawn.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

No I subscribe to the wider, and now universally accepted definition of The Holocaust, as per that given in the Encyclopaedia Brittanoica

"Holocaust, Hebrew Shoʾah, Yiddish and Hebrew Ḥurban (“Destruction”),

The systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II.

Included in that definition is

► The wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, the mentally deficient and the physically handicapped in the death camps.

►The use of Jews, Gypsies, the mentally deficient and the physically handicapped for inhuman medical experimentation.

► The enslavement of Jews, Gypsies and other undesirables as in the manufacture of goods and materiel for the German war effort.

I get my information about the Holocaust from sources other than mass market encyclopedias that have a history of antisemitism like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Yad Vashem defines the Holocaust as: The Holocaust was the murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators...The Jews were not the only victims of Hitler's regime, but they were the only group that the Nazis sought to destroy entirely. I trust the Israelis more than I trust the Brits.

Then you are about 50 years out of date.

No, fifty years ago is when the world started recognizing that something unique happened to the Jews during World War 2. Seventy years ago, your universalist definition of the Holocaust whereby Jews were just one group of people who were persecuted by the Nazis would be apropos.

Incorrect. Romany people were also singled out for elimination.



The "six million" figure used for Jews killed during the Holocaust includes deaths attributable to beatings, starvation, street executions, lethal experiments, deaths in concentration camps, overwork in forced labour and forced relocations. While the Nazis marked the Jews for complete extermination they were not all just gassed and they were not the only ones gassed. The Nazis used whatever means were available. Further, many non-Jewish victims also died in concentration camps by gassing, lethal experiments, starvation, overwork in forced labour, or beatings, but a greater number died due to the Nazi's aggressive tactics in rounding up their victims for relocation.

The Nazis tried not just to annihilate all Jews, but they targeted all other enemies of the state. Every Jew was to be wiped out, and that millions of non-Jews were also killed goes to show their determination to eliminate anyone who could even remotely be considered an enemy of the state.

Current estimates based on documents from Nazi war records, and official government documents of various countries, place the death toll of people murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust as conservatively over 15 million non-combatant people, perhaps as many as 26 million.. The exact figures will most likely6 never be n known

Dr. Freud, what do you think of smartcooky's sentence in bold type above?

I sink dat shmartcooky ist displaying a repressed antisemitism because he conziderz ze Jews to be among ze enemies of ze state.

Very insightful Dr. Freud. I would add that smartcooky unconsciously believes the Holocaust was justified. After all, all States punish "enemies of the State" by defining treason as illegal. If Jews are enemies of the State, then of course they should be rendered harmless.

Very aztute obzervation Captain Howdy!

Thank you.

You are velcome.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

It's funny how every denier also turns out to be a Jew hater:



What a coincidence.

Where is that quote from?