General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[MRC_Hans]

This type of line of thought has always bothered me. The "it wasn't 10 million Jews, that number includes Slavs, Russians, Gypsies" or the " no, it was only x number of <<insert group>> that were killed".
It is an admission that the Nazis had extermination ie:genocide, programs for various groups. The Jews happen to be the biggest group, and one that existed within Germany itself.

No amount of minimizing makes killing millions for no other reason than their ancestry or religion, a good thing. It doesn't make the genocide programs any less disgusting. The attempts at minimization do however, make the proponent of such arguments more disgusting.

Indeed. Even if, entirely hypothetically, the Nazis had been far less effective, and only managed to kill off a few thousand Jews, just because they were Jews, it would still have been an appalling, unforgivable crime.

I can't even think of a rationale for bickering about numbers, except perhaps sheer desperation.

Hans

 

[TheGoldcountry]

https://youtu.be/Bk_pHZmn5QM?t=157

 

[truthist]

Oh, there was a holocaust. The point is that it was ultimately the allies that were responsible for the deaths of the jews. Not the Germans.

 

[The Big Dog]

Oh, there was a holocaust. The point is that it was ultimately the allies that were responsible for the deaths of the jews. Not the Germans.

yeah, except for the 1.5 million you said were killed by the Germans at Auschwitz?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I find the idea of Holocaust denial almost a personal affront. My uncle was a British soldier (a wireless operator) with the 11th armoured division. They were the first allied soldiers to arrive at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 (and a few weeks later, Neuengamme). He said they could smell the decomposing corpses for miles, and it was the only thing that gave them any idea of that they might find when the arrived.

That experience affected him very badly. It was difficult to get him to talk about it, but I do remember that he hated Germans until the day he died. I remember my Cousin telling me that one day, he came home having bought a BMW motorcycle, my Uncle would not speak to talk to him and would not allow him to park "that infernal machine" on his property..

After Uncle's death in 1985, we found a photo album that none of us (even his wife) had ever seen before. It was full of colour photographs taken at both Belsen and Neuengamme. His widow donated the album to Beth Shalom, a Holocaust Museum in England. Unfortunately, in those days, scanning photos wasn't a thing, so I have no copies.

Holocaust deniers all conveniently forget that many thousands of ordinary allied soldiers saw the camps and the bodies and the emaciated survivors. For many, that experience had a lasting impact, it changed them forever.

Michael Bentine the well known comedian and Goon was one of the liberators of the Bergen-Belsen camp.

 

[Ranb]

Oh, there was a holocaust. The point is that it was ultimately the allies that were responsible for the deaths of the jews. Not the Germans.

The last time I heard this stupid claim it was because the allies disrupted supply lines. Seeing as how the jailer is always responsible for the condition of the prisoner, they can't excuse themselves of their deaths when they could have done anything other than starve or kill them instead.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

I stand by my thread and am ready to defend it. So you or anybody else can start "ripping."

Come here:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39

Whip up an id and talk to us.

 

[Border Reiver]

Oh, there was a holocaust. The point is that it was ultimately the allies that were responsible for the deaths of the jews. Not the Germans.

No.

The allies did not start the killing, set up the camps, gather the victims. The decision to start it and carry it out is all on the Germans.

Do you always blame the victims of crime for being the victim?

 

[smartcooky]

Michael Bentine the well known comedian and Goon was one of the liberators of the Bergen-Belsen camp.

Bentine was actually RAF Intelligence not British Army. He wrote a little about his experience at Bergen-Belsen in this book "The Reluctant Jester" but even he found it difficult to explain;

"Millions of words have been written about these horror camps, many of them by inmates of those unbelievable places. I’ve tried, without success, to describe it from my own point of view, but the words won’t come. To me Belsen was the ultimate blasphemy."

Most types of conspiracy theorists I can stand because ultimately, people like Apollo Hoax Believers and 9/11 Truthers are just stupid and ignorant nutjobs. However, Holocaust deniers such as David Icke, David Duke, Mark Weber and Fred Leuchter, and their gullible, and often pathetic disciples, are not just stupid and ignorant; they are also a special brand of disgusting.

 

[dudalb]

I suspect we will see a LOT more activity from the Holocaust deniers because of the very nasty upsurge in Anti Semitism we have been seeing in the US.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

... Excuse me ...

No.

I'm also here, briefly, to recycle. Re-posted here in case he reads along.

Not sure what to do with this development of Eric Hunt leaving Holocaust denial behind but I welcome the news and am cautiously optimistic about his future. Even when Eric seemed interested in engaging in dialogue, exploring the facts and doing the research, there was always his reluctance to distance himself from the violent calls of his pitchfork toting companions in HD, but, now that Eric has taken this first step out of step, perhaps he'll be able to walk away completely. Perhaps benefit from contacting a group of previously likeminded people in organisations such as: http://www.lifeafterhate.org/services
... which popped up among the Yahoo headlines a few days ago, and for which there seems a need in the current climate.

"Where did they go" was solved many decades ago and restating that in no uncertain terms has proven yet again among the most useful of approaches towards those who deny that. Thanks to those who persisted.
The question now seems to be: Where will he go?

Hopefully to those who'll continue to give Eric better counsel than those in whose care he believed himself to be. The deniers and supremacists in their disguise betrayed you first, Eric. They betrayed you by reassuring you that their lies were truth. They betrayed you by lying that they could make your life better. I can only advise you to put more distance between yourself and those people. From what you found out it should now be obvious that their solutions won't get you out of any of your predicaments.

Not excusing you either, Eric. Not until you take responsibility, make amends and take those additional steps required to leave behind the ideology from which they had no escape but you do. Most of the dead ends in your life are of your own creation. Stop living up to the name your prescient parents gave you. Going silent on the H doesn't mean you've stopped being one. Unlike the Jews you couldn't find, you still have a life ahead of you, and a way out. Take it.

 

[EtienneSC]

Eric Hunt

Here are some relevant links:
HC: Eric Hunt is no longer a holocaust denier
CODOH: Eric Hunt rolls over
Archive of the article:
http://archive.is/DoGTn

Here is the debate between Eric Hunt and Fritz Berg on Eric's essay:
Berg/Hunt debate

 

[Pacal]

The last time I heard this stupid claim it was because the allies disrupted supply lines. Seeing as how the jailer is always responsible for the condition of the prisoner, they can't excuse themselves of their deaths when they could have done anything other than starve or kill them instead.

This idiotic meme has been popular Holocaust Deniers for decades. It goes something like this; i.e., it was because of allied bombing that destroyed / disrupted supply lines that hundreds of thousands of prisoners in Concentration camps died in them during the final months of the war.

Of course it is utter pap. The bottom line is that the German population around camps like Bergen-Belsen was not starving in the last months of the war or dying of starvation in large numbers. The individuals in camps like Belsen died because of deliberate decisions made by those governing the camps. And of course Holocaust Deniers ignore the question of why the hell these people were in the camps in the first place.

 

[jaydeehess]

This idiotic meme has been popular Holocaust Deniers for decades. It goes something like this; i.e., it was because of allied bombing that destroyed / disrupted supply lines that hundreds of thousands of prisoners in Concentration camps died in them during the final months of the war.

Of course it is utter pap. The bottom line is that the German population around camps like Bergen-Belsen was not starving in the last months of the war or dying of starvation in large numbers. The individuals in camps like Belsen died because of deliberate decisions made by those governing the camps. And of course Holocaust Deniers ignore the question of why the hell these people were in the camps in the first place.

The guards at the camps also did not starve to death, indicating food did reach the camps.
,,,and yes, the very existence of the camps to detain people for their religious belief enabled these deaths by starvation, a fate not suffered by those living nearby the camps.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The guards at the camps also did not starve to death, indicating food did reach the camps.
,,,and yes, the very existence of the camps to detain people for their religious belief enabled these deaths by starvation, a fate not suffered by those living nearby the camps.

Plus, of course, people in the camps did NOT just starve to death. Some probably did, but most were deliberately killed, by gassing, shooting, and a few worse things.

Hans

 

[jaydeehess]

Plus, of course, people in the camps did NOT just starve to death. Some probably did, but most were deliberately killed, by gassing, shooting, and a few worse things.

Hans

Of course, yes. The deniers, like so many conspiracists, take each part of a history and treat it as if it were the whole. Here they claim starvation was the fault of the Allied bombing and this is attacked as preposterous given that the only ones starving in the area were the prisoners. But that discussion then ignores the gassing. If the discussion moves to that then it will be countered as if it were the only story. If it moves to mass shootings then that will be treated as if it were the only story.

The cognitive dissonance that allows deniers to partition everything in this way is astounding.

 

[timhau]

Of course, yes. The deniers, like so many conspiracists, take each part of a history and treat it as if it were the whole. Here they claim starvation was the fault of the Allied bombing and this is attacked as preposterous given that the only ones starving in the area were the prisoners.

It also totally ignores the question why those people were imprisoned in the first place.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

I find the idea of Holocaust denial almost a personal affront. My uncle was a British soldier (a wireless operator) with the 11th armoured division. They were the first allied soldiers to arrive at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 (and a few weeks later, Neuengamme). He said they could smell the decomposing corpses for miles, and it was the only thing that gave them any idea of that they might find when the arrived.

That experience affected him very badly. It was difficult to get him to talk about it, but I do remember that he hated Germans until the day he died. I remember my Cousin telling me that one day, he came home having bought a BMW motorcycle, my Uncle would not speak to talk to him and would not allow him to park "that infernal machine" on his property..

After Uncle's death in 1985, we found a photo album that none of us (even his wife) had ever seen before. It was full of colour photographs taken at both Belsen and Neuengamme. His widow donated the album to Beth Shalom, a Holocaust Museum in England. Unfortunately, in those days, scanning photos wasn't a thing, so I have no copies.

Holocaust deniers all conveniently forget that many thousands of ordinary allied soldiers saw the camps and the bodies and the emaciated survivors. For many, that experience had a lasting impact, it changed them forever.

Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust. Your Uncle saw the conditions suffered by all prisoners in German camps at the end of the war. Most of the prisoners he saw in those camps were not Jewish. Most of the dead bodies he saw were not Jewish. He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed. Your Uncle liberated concentration camps. He didn't liberate any of the death camps. The death camps were all in what is now Poland and were liberated by the Soviets.

 

[Elagabalus]

Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust. Your Uncle saw the conditions suffered by all prisoners in German camps at the end of the war. Most of the prisoners he saw in those camps were not Jewish. Most of the dead bodies he saw were not Jewish. He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed. Your Uncle liberated concentration camps. He didn't liberate any of the death camps. The death camps were all in what is now Poland and were liberated by the Soviets.

Well, at least, the last four sentences of your, frankly, disingenuous post are true. Got any figures on how many Jews were at Bergen-Belsen at the time of liberation? This from the BBC says the population was mostly Jewish:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/liberation_camps_01.shtml

and also here at the Imperial War Museum:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-liberation-of-bergen-belsen

 

[ddt]

Your Uncle liberated concentration camps. He didn't liberate any of the death camps. The death camps were all in what is now Poland and were liberated by the Soviets.

Well, at least, the last four sentences of your, frankly, disingenuous post are true.

Not quite. By the time the Soviets came around, the Aktion Reinhard camps had all been out of commission, with the exception of Treblinka, so there was nothing to liberate. Sobibor, after the revolt in 1943, was even razed to the ground, including the rail tracks leading to it, and the site given back to nature.