What Would You Recommend For The Curious Theist?

[Loss Leader]

Forget it. She just quoted Pascal's Wager. If you're blind enough to believe that kind of nonsense, you're not going to come around because Kurt Vonnegut suggests it.

Pascal's wager? How does he decide which religion to wager on? Does he have a Magic 8 Ball with all the world's religions written on a little floating cube?

 

[Craig4]

If she's open to Pratchett the Science of the Discworld books are excellent, and have a Discworld novella embedded in them as an additional enticement.

I love "Small Gods".

 

[Egg]

Francis Collins - "The Language of God" makes a good case for evolution from the point of view of a Christian. That can be a non-confrontational approach to accepting scientific discovery.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Forget it. She just quoted Pascal's Wager. If you're blind enough to believe that kind of nonsense, you're not going to come around because Kurt Vonnegut suggests it.

Pascal's wager? How does he decide which religion to wager on? Does he have a Magic 8 Ball with all the world's religions written on a little floating cube?

More over he assumes a deistic ending. (Note I do not believe this) Whats to say when we die we just don't wake up from some elaborate matrix and if you chose not to believe you get a free mansion?

Has Pascal wagered on every possible after death outcome?

With no disrespect intended it seems like she was proselytizing but threw in a "Oh sure I'll do a book for a book' to sweeten the bait.

 

[Loss Leader]

With no disrespect intended it seems like she was proselytizing but threw in a "Oh sure I'll do a book for a book' to sweeten the bait.

Unquestionably. Her particular sect appears to believe that: a) nobody can go to heaven without accepting Jebus; b) that merely studying the New Testament will bring faith; and c) that it is thus their mission to get as many people to read it as possible.

 

[Delvo]

I was about to say not to do the deal until I saw that you had come to the same conclusion anyway.

I wonder what the odds are that she has read the New Testament. Most Christians haven't, especially among those who act like it would somehow cause the reader to become Christian. I also wonder how she'd react to "I already have, and that's a big part of why I don't buy this stuff".

The problem with this whole idea goes beyond just whether either side's mind is open/closed, or the weirdly aggressive concept of pushing a book at someone in exchange for putting up with whatever book of crap they'll try to push at you, because this isn't just some beliefs she has. She's done a lot of work for it over a significant part of her life. Trying to convince her it was wrong all along is trying to convince her that she's wasted a bunch of her life, and possibly even doing other people a net harm.

 

[Loss Leader]

I wonder what the odds are that she has read the New Testament. Most Christians haven't, especially among those who act like it would somehow cause the reader to become Christian.

I'm quite sure she's read at least the New Testament extensively, multiple times. She claims to have read the Book of Mormon so she could testify more convincingly to Mormons.

She's done a lot of work for it over a significant part of her life. Trying to convince her it was wrong all along is trying to convince her that she's wasted a bunch of her life

And she has said just that. She's a smart person (she generally is) and she wouldn't have devoted her life to Christ if it weren't "true." I will not change her mind and I really don't want to. I just would like to get her to understand that the other people who have different views aren't "wrong" or "misled." It's possible to be an atheist and be happy - I don't think she'll ever grasp that.

 

[ynot]

The lady's not a "curious theist" and never was.

As Maggie T said - "The lady's not for turning"

 

[Loss Leader]

The lady's not a "curious theist" and never was.

No, that was my phrase. You are entirely right. (And thanks for teaching me a little bit about Thatcher. Had never heard the phrase before.)

 

[Loss Leader]

I've written her to say I can't read any more. I read Romans and Matthew before I began screaming, "How can you know this?" at every page.

I told her that I respected that her beliefs work for her. As asked that she consider that my beliefs are sufficient for me.

Chance she'll understand: 0%

 

[abaddon]

I've written her to say I can't read any more. I read Romans and Matthew before I began screaming, "How can you know this?" at every page.

I told her that I respected that her beliefs work for her. As asked that she consider that my beliefs are sufficient for me.

Chance she'll understand: 0%

Why, then, have you an expectation that she will in any way hold up her end of the bargain? Even if she does, you will have no leg upon which to stand if you do not.

Sure, it is frustrating, sure I have never shouted at a book bar that one but surely if you accept the wager then at least one must attempt to live up to it, no?

Just accept that it is part of the playbook. "Have you read the gospel?" is an opening gambit. The second last answer they want is "Yes". The primary answer they avoid is "Yes. And here is what is wrong with it".

I deconverted a JW and that is a tough nut to crack.

 

[xterra]

Part A.

I have a friend who is deeply, almost fanatically, Christian, of one or another of the Protestant flavors. Early in our friendship, he would natter on about his belief and about how having Jesus in his heart was so important and about my non-belief meant I would burn in hell.

I finally said that if he kept this line of talk going, I would no longer listen. Occasionally, he'll say something -- or start to -- and I'll cut him off. He's pretty good natured about it, but sometimes I can see that he wants to continue.

So I'll give him a look, or on the phone say his name in a warning tone of voice. He stops. We remain friends.


ETA, in case this didn't come across, I have told him that if he persists not only trying to convince me, but even discussing religion, our friendship is finished.

Part B.

Loss Leader,

How does this rather one-sided friendship benefit you, if the (a?) major component in it is her attempt to convert you? Why do you continue to put yourself through this?

In the case of my friend, there are compensating elements, as long as he stays off that one topic.

 

[Loss Leader]

Had quite the philosophical discussion tonight. She absolutely could not see my point of view. She believes that converting people to Christ is the single most important thing ever, that she is literally saving them from eternal damnation. The very concept that other people might think differently causes some sort of dissonance in her head that she cannot accept.

I've tried everything. I'd like for there to be a god, but wanting something to be true isn't actually a reason for it to be true.

I told her I cannot read anymore. She begged me, but I'm pretty sure that this will be our last conversation other than me liking pictures of her kids graduating or other Facebook nonsense.

Thanks to all in this thread for the guidance, support and, most of all, reading list.

 

[xterra]

LL,

I don't know if you've seen this, but it seems appropriate.

Recently, I got annoyed enough at a persistent door-to-door proselytizer that I finally said, "Sorry, but I am not superstitious. If you want to be, go bother someone else."

 

[Delvo]

Has she ever tried to describe what effect she expects reading the Bible to have and why she expects that?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Forget it. She just quoted Pascal's Wager. If you're blind enough to believe that kind of nonsense, you're not going to come around because Kurt Vonnegut suggests it.

I like Pascal's Wager. It leads into one of the better arguments that actually work on Christians: "even if you land on the right religion, do you really think that god will be cool with you spinning a wheel to get to him?"

Because of course they don't. No one does. Believing, not just having as doctrine but capital-B Believing in Grace leads you down a weird, dark, Calvinist path at the end of which you don't give a hoot about evangelism but suffer from crippling anxiety that each secular thought you have may signal your own inevitable damnation.

Then it's a quick jump from there to advocating honest disbelief over dishonest belief, and just trying to be the best person you can regardless of having the right god or the wrong god or no god. When the time comes, I'm sure he'll understand. If not, **** 'em.


Anyway, you should invite her to post here. We like meeting fresh views.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I recently struck up a conversation on Facebook with an old high school friend. She spent 15 years on a mission in Thailand and works in personnel for the missionary group now in Colorado. She has four great kids (only 1 under 18), wonderful husband and is an all-around swell person.

Recently, she got to talking to me about Jesus. According to her, I can be saved if I accept Jesus into my heart and whatever. I have tried to politely explain the null hypothesis and the lack of proof that any god exists.

It came down to this, she chaleneged me to read the entire New Testament (Romans first, for some reason). In return, I got to pick a book for her to read.

I didn't want to hit her with anything overly confrontational like "Why People Believe Weird Things" or anything too philosophical and inaccessable like Kierkegard's "Fear and Trembling."

So, my choice for her was "Sirens of Titan" by Kurt Vonnegut.

What would you have suggested?

I wouldn't recommend anything. If she is seriously curious, then she should develop a curiosity about how things actually work. She should develop the kind of curiosity that makes one ask oneself "Could I possibly be wrong about this? And if so, how could I go about to demonstrate what is actually true about this?". This kind of mindset is something that people should develop on their own account. No suggesting of books is gonna change someone's mind when they've already made up their mind about this stuff.

And I can see from your recent posts, that my hunch about her was right.