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What Would You Recommend For The Curious Theist?

She is a creationist. She believes the bible is literally true. Oddly, she was educated in the same AP classes as I was, so she not only was exposed to physics, biology and chemistry but she excelled at them. She was also exposed to a really diverse population including lots and lots of Jews. Little of it seems to have stuck.

I have some thoughts, but also questions.

Are we YEC or OEC?

Am I correct that you refer to the 500 witnesses of 1 Cor, or is it oddly the zombie apocalypse of Jerusalem?
 
I have some thoughts, but also questions.

Are we YEC or OEC?

Am I correct that you refer to the 500 witnesses of 1 Cor, or is it oddly the zombie apocalypse of Jerusalem?


YEC, I think. And I have no idea where the 500 witnesses thing is from. It was featured heavily in some article about how a lawyer proved the existence of the christian god.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sagan's "The Varieties of Scientific Experience; A Personal View of the Search for God."


I'll take a look at it.


I think a flanking maneuver is called for.
Try, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"


I couldn't get through that thing. I'd hardly expect anyone else to.


In that case, River Out of Eden by Dawkins, or "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne.


Another two I'll look at.


You're up against it, though, trying to persuade that closed a mind of anything factual.
I was going to comment about how LL's friend is likely insisting the he "keep an open mind" about Jesus. Odd how those same types never keep an open mind to the possibility that they are wrong.


It is odd. She fully believes that a person can be reasoned into believing in her god, but refuses to be reasoned into any other way of thinking herself (or even believing that people who think differently have arrived at their conclusions through reason). It's terribly myopic or egotistical or some word that means whatever it is that I'm trying to say.


ETA: Christopher Moore's "Lamb (the gospel according to Biff, Jesus' childhood friend)" is hysterical, and might get her to take things a bit less seriously?


I think that would be interpreted as an insult.
 
I think that would be interpreted as an insult.

It might be, though Moore goes to great lengths in his postscript to point out that he's not trying to be insulting or anything. But, yeah, some get offended easily. Nevertheless, if you haven't read it, may I recommend it to you? It's a really funny book. As are most his his works. But then, I have a twisted sense of humor. Python is to blame.
 
YEC, I think.
In that case I would recommend Bryson's "A short history of nearly everything". Easy, layman and torpedoes YEC effortlessly, not by even remotely arguing it, but by explaining why it is that we know what we know from first principles in terms anyone can understand.

And I have no idea where the 500 witnesses thing is from. It was featured heavily in some article about how a lawyer proved the existence of the christian god.
Likely she is referring to this:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.—1 Corinthians 15:3-9

I which case, she is wrong about "500" because the verse states outright that it was "more than five hundred" and it is a pauline claim, not an eyewitness claim. Recall that paul never met jebus in the flesh. Not before the claimed resurrection and not after it either. Of these claimed 500+ witnesses, not a single one is documented anywhere. Not in the bible, not in the apocrypha, nowhere. As such, it is simply an unevidenced random claim bereft of any actual evidence.


I'll take a look at it.
Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"

I couldn't get through that thing. I'd hardly expect anyone else to.
Been there and done that. "Zen" is actually pretty good, yet not light reading. From your description, your protagonist does not seem to me to be amenable to that. Perhaps that should rightly go on the further reading list?

Another two I'll look at.
I can highly commend them, but perhaps not as a first stab at the subject matter.

I think that would be interpreted as an insult.
That is your real problem. You are treading in an intellectual minefield. Just one slight misstep and there is no going back.
 
In that case I would recommend Bryson's "A short history of nearly everything". Easy, layman and torpedoes YEC effortlessly, not by even remotely arguing it, but by explaining why it is that we know what we know from first principles in terms anyone can understand.


There is absolutely nothing to compare with Bill Bryson's Short History except for every other Bill Bryson book. However, he focuses a lot on the history of science (especially the British gentlemen scientists of the 1800s). I don't think she'd get anything out of it. Anyone actually curious about nearly everything should read the book immediately. Don't even finish reading this post.

it is a pauline claim, not an eyewitness claim. Recall that paul never met jebus in the flesh. Not before the claimed resurrection and not after it either. Of these claimed 500+ witnesses, not a single one is documented anywhere. Not in the bible, not in the apocrypha, nowhere. As such, it is simply an unevidenced random claim bereft of any actual evidence.


We've actually covered this. She referred me to some nonsense that Paul states that he undertook to do the best research possible and he was a doctor or something, so he would never lie. The fact that one need not lie in order to misstate something appears meaningless to her. The fact that there is no other historian of the period whose word is taken as fact by current historians is also meaningless.


Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"


I'll look at it. My worry about Sagan and Shermer and the like is that she's probably been trained to instantly shut off her brain when she hears something about them. That was why I tried to hit her from the outside with Vonnegut. Nobody puts their guard up for Vonnegut.


That is your real problem. You are treading in an intellectual minefield. Just one slight misstep and there is no going back.


Every time we correspond, I have to spend two paragraphs on how wonderful her family looks and how fondly I remember her from school and all sorts of nonsense just so she doesn't shut down completely.
 
A number of Bart Ehrman's books would do, but I was particularly impressed with "Lost Christianities", which shows that early Christianity was not this (as commonly presented) unified idea but instead wildly diverse, with as many as 30 different early "Jesus cults" with very different ideas about Jesus, his nature and purpose, etc.
That it took over 300 years for any semblance of orthodoxy to arise.

I would have gone with Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus". Ehrman's is a scholar but he doesn't write for scholars. I think your friend would find him rather accesable.
 
There is absolutely nothing to compare with Bill Bryson's Short History except for every other Bill Bryson book. However, he focuses a lot on the history of science (especially the British gentlemen scientists of the 1800s). I don't think she'd get anything out of it. Anyone actually curious about nearly everything should read the book immediately. Don't even finish reading this post.




We've actually covered this. She referred me to some nonsense that Paul states that he undertook to do the best research possible and he was a doctor or something, so he would never lie. The fact that one need not lie in order to misstate something appears meaningless to her. The fact that there is no other historian of the period whose word is taken as fact by current historians is also meaningless.





I'll look at it. My worry about Sagan and Shermer and the like is that she's probably been trained to instantly shut off her brain when she hears something about them. That was why I tried to hit her from the outside with Vonnegut. Nobody puts their guard up for Vonnegut.





Every time we correspond, I have to spend two paragraphs on how wonderful her family looks and how fondly I remember her from school and all sorts of nonsense just so she doesn't shut down completely.
Right, you have a really gem of a problem there. This is not unknown to me.

Is this individual a paper or emedia type. The reason I ask is that I read voraciously and the media matters not a whit to me. Nonetheless, if your protagonist is willing to read PDF, then I could drop some PDF links if it helps. For most of these foundational books, copyright has long since expired.

Nevertheless, I am fully aware that some are still wedded to paper, and I can hardly complain about that, given that the tactile joy of a physical book is a deep pleasure to me.

In any event, I can wheel you copies in PDF of any of the titles I have suggested (legal ones) and a fair smattering of the titles others have suggested.

But I harbour a belief that this would likely not much matter anyway. From your description, it appears to me that you have a teflon theist on your hands.

So here is a different suggestion. How about you set up, say, a moderated thread for the sole purpose of engaging in discussion? Naturally, as a mod you would have to defer to other mods, conflict of interest and so forth.

And sure, it gets robust in these here parts sometimes, but that is why I suggest a modded thread from the outset.

Look, I am simply suggesting possibilities. I do not know this individual, you do. It might well be that if, as you describe, this individual is as fragile and delicate as you say, then perhaps some form of walled garden might be entirely appropriate. Not the done thing here as such, I know, but sometimes you go the extra mile if you can.
 
Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"
Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up.

I'd also consider Stephen Baxter's Evolution, which is really really good right up until it hits the present and then becomes unnecessarily depressing because that's Baxter's thing. So two-thirds of a very good narrative fiction book about dinosaurs and human ancestry.

Also, Pratchett's Small Gods. If she's going to be a theist, at least she can be a nice one.
 
Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up.
There is a long since banned poster who's handle escapes me that epically made that very error in spectacular fashion. A mormon as I recall. Dammit, now I have to dredge that up.

I'd also consider Stephen Baxter's Evolution, which is really really good right up until it hits the present and then becomes unnecessarily depressing because that's Baxter's thing. So two-thirds of a very good narrative fiction book about dinosaurs and human ancestry.

Also, Pratchett's Small Gods. If she's going to be a theist, at least she can be a nice one.
I have read nothing Baxter, so I cannot really comment, but Pratchett's Small Gods really stuck a rigid finger in the festering wound of the realm of faith.
 
Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein of course. No answers, hundreds of questions, but it just makes you think about pretty much everything.

Norm
 
If she's open to Pratchett the Science of the Discworld books are excellent, and have a Discworld novella embedded in them as an additional enticement.
 
......Every time we correspond, I have to spend two paragraphs on how wonderful her family looks and how fondly I remember her from school and all sorts of nonsense just so she doesn't shut down completely.

I'm struggling to understand this relationship. She doesn't seem like a friend or regular acquaintance, so much as a long-lost school friend. She sounds irredeemable to me, in terms of goddidit, and the price to be paid for continuing the relationship (whatever that is) seems way too high. Do you know how much babbling nonsense you are going to have to plough through in that silly book? Why would you put yourself through this?
 
Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein of course. No answers, hundreds of questions, but it just makes you think about pretty much everything.

Norm
I remember that book (ehen I read it 35 years ago) to be more of a Christ parable than an argument for reason. Maybe I have to brush up on my Heinlein.
 
If she is a former missionary, and not into science, scifi, anything nerdy, skepticism, etc., I think that you can't go wrong with Kurt Vonnegut.

I would pick "Cat's Cradle" myself over the "Sirens of Titian", but that may just be a matter of taste.
 
I have read nothing Baxter, so I cannot really comment, but Pratchett's Small Gods really stuck a rigid finger in the festering wound of the realm of faith.
Pratchett said it's the one book for which both theists and atheists tell him he got it exactly right.
 
I remember that book (ehen I read it 35 years ago) to be more of a Christ parable than an argument for reason. Maybe I have to brush up on my Heinlein.

I love Heinlein, and "Stranger in a Strange Land" in particular, but would not call it an argument for reason in the context of this discussion. It is a Christ parable revolving around a Pantheistic religion.
 
Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up..

That may be true, but, then again, given the challenge at hand (LL read the bible and the other person read a book of her choosing), if she either refuses to read or even consider the content of something like DHW, then it shows that the whole discussion is disingenuous.

"Here, you read this book I want you to read with an open mind, and, in exchange, I won't consider anything that challenges my beliefs or makes me uncomfortable in any way."

It already sounds like that is a problem. LL, you need to step up and make it clear that she is not being honest.
 
I recently struck up a conversation on Facebook with an old high school friend. She spent 15 years on a mission in Thailand and works in personnel for the missionary group now in Colorado. She has four great kids (only 1 under 18), wonderful husband and is an all-around swell person.

Recently, she got to talking to me about Jesus. According to her, I can be saved if I accept Jesus into my heart and whatever. I have tried to politely explain the null hypothesis and the lack of proof that any god exists.

It came down to this, she chaleneged me to read the entire New Testament (Romans first, for some reason). In return, I got to pick a book for her to read.

I didn't want to hit her with anything overly confrontational like "Why People Believe Weird Things" or anything too philosophical and inaccessable like Kierkegard's "Fear and Trembling."

So, my choice for her was "Sirens of Titan" by Kurt Vonnegut.

What would you have suggested?

To read the entire new testament is quite a snoot full. I would counter her by offering to read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It captures the essence Christianity and is also an interesting and entertaining read.

In turn, I would recommend something like Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth or even William James, the Variety of Religious Experience for her to read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience
 
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To read the entire new testament is quite a snoot full. I would counter her by offering to read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It captures the essence Christianity and is also an interesting and entertaining read.


A person I knew said that she never really understood her Catholicism until she read Irving's A Prayer for Owen Meany. I read it and I ... do not understand Catholicism.

I'm afraid this whole experiment is going to go bust. Every time I pick up that stupid book, I just get angry. And I believe sincerely that she is immune to any argument of any sort. She will never even understand that reasonable people can differ or even that it's possible to be a good person without being a christian.

I should have picked Gravity's Rainbow. It's about as unreadable as a non-religious text gets.
 

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