Beady
Philosopher
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sagan's "The Varieties of Scientific Experience; A Personal View of the Search for God."
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She is a creationist. She believes the bible is literally true. Oddly, she was educated in the same AP classes as I was, so she not only was exposed to physics, biology and chemistry but she excelled at them. She was also exposed to a really diverse population including lots and lots of Jews. Little of it seems to have stuck.
I have some thoughts, but also questions.
Are we YEC or OEC?
Am I correct that you refer to the 500 witnesses of 1 Cor, or is it oddly the zombie apocalypse of Jerusalem?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sagan's "The Varieties of Scientific Experience; A Personal View of the Search for God."
I think a flanking maneuver is called for.
Try, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
In that case, River Out of Eden by Dawkins, or "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne.
You're up against it, though, trying to persuade that closed a mind of anything factual.
I was going to comment about how LL's friend is likely insisting the he "keep an open mind" about Jesus. Odd how those same types never keep an open mind to the possibility that they are wrong.
It is odd. She fully believes that a person can be reasoned into believing in her god, but refuses to be reasoned into any other way of thinking herself (or even believing that people who think differently have arrived at their conclusions through reason). It's terribly myopic or egotistical or some word that means whatever it is that I'm trying to say.
ETA: Christopher Moore's "Lamb (the gospel according to Biff, Jesus' childhood friend)" is hysterical, and might get her to take things a bit less seriously?
I think that would be interpreted as an insult.
In that case I would recommend Bryson's "A short history of nearly everything". Easy, layman and torpedoes YEC effortlessly, not by even remotely arguing it, but by explaining why it is that we know what we know from first principles in terms anyone can understand.YEC, I think.
Likely she is referring to this:And I have no idea where the 500 witnesses thing is from. It was featured heavily in some article about how a lawyer proved the existence of the christian god.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.—1 Corinthians 15:3-9
Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"I'll take a look at it.
Been there and done that. "Zen" is actually pretty good, yet not light reading. From your description, your protagonist does not seem to me to be amenable to that. Perhaps that should rightly go on the further reading list?I couldn't get through that thing. I'd hardly expect anyone else to.
I can highly commend them, but perhaps not as a first stab at the subject matter.Another two I'll look at.
That is your real problem. You are treading in an intellectual minefield. Just one slight misstep and there is no going back.I think that would be interpreted as an insult.
In that case I would recommend Bryson's "A short history of nearly everything". Easy, layman and torpedoes YEC effortlessly, not by even remotely arguing it, but by explaining why it is that we know what we know from first principles in terms anyone can understand.
it is a pauline claim, not an eyewitness claim. Recall that paul never met jebus in the flesh. Not before the claimed resurrection and not after it either. Of these claimed 500+ witnesses, not a single one is documented anywhere. Not in the bible, not in the apocrypha, nowhere. As such, it is simply an unevidenced random claim bereft of any actual evidence.
Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"
That is your real problem. You are treading in an intellectual minefield. Just one slight misstep and there is no going back.
A number of Bart Ehrman's books would do, but I was particularly impressed with "Lost Christianities", which shows that early Christianity was not this (as commonly presented) unified idea but instead wildly diverse, with as many as 30 different early "Jesus cults" with very different ideas about Jesus, his nature and purpose, etc.
That it took over 300 years for any semblance of orthodoxy to arise.
Right, you have a really gem of a problem there. This is not unknown to me.There is absolutely nothing to compare with Bill Bryson's Short History except for every other Bill Bryson book. However, he focuses a lot on the history of science (especially the British gentlemen scientists of the 1800s). I don't think she'd get anything out of it. Anyone actually curious about nearly everything should read the book immediately. Don't even finish reading this post.
We've actually covered this. She referred me to some nonsense that Paul states that he undertook to do the best research possible and he was a doctor or something, so he would never lie. The fact that one need not lie in order to misstate something appears meaningless to her. The fact that there is no other historian of the period whose word is taken as fact by current historians is also meaningless.
I'll look at it. My worry about Sagan and Shermer and the like is that she's probably been trained to instantly shut off her brain when she hears something about them. That was why I tried to hit her from the outside with Vonnegut. Nobody puts their guard up for Vonnegut.
Every time we correspond, I have to spend two paragraphs on how wonderful her family looks and how fondly I remember her from school and all sorts of nonsense just so she doesn't shut down completely.
Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up.Consider adding Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"
There is a long since banned poster who's handle escapes me that epically made that very error in spectacular fashion. A mormon as I recall. Dammit, now I have to dredge that up.Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up.
I have read nothing Baxter, so I cannot really comment, but Pratchett's Small Gods really stuck a rigid finger in the festering wound of the realm of faith.I'd also consider Stephen Baxter's Evolution, which is really really good right up until it hits the present and then becomes unnecessarily depressing because that's Baxter's thing. So two-thirds of a very good narrative fiction book about dinosaurs and human ancestry.
Also, Pratchett's Small Gods. If she's going to be a theist, at least she can be a nice one.
......Every time we correspond, I have to spend two paragraphs on how wonderful her family looks and how fondly I remember her from school and all sorts of nonsense just so she doesn't shut down completely.
I remember that book (ehen I read it 35 years ago) to be more of a Christ parable than an argument for reason. Maybe I have to brush up on my Heinlein.Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein of course. No answers, hundreds of questions, but it just makes you think about pretty much everything.
Norm
Pratchett said it's the one book for which both theists and atheists tell him he got it exactly right.I have read nothing Baxter, so I cannot really comment, but Pratchett's Small Gods really stuck a rigid finger in the festering wound of the realm of faith.
I remember that book (ehen I read it 35 years ago) to be more of a Christ parable than an argument for reason. Maybe I have to brush up on my Heinlein.
Came to say this, so seconded. The only problem with the book is the crap title. People get to "demon" and freak out, and by the time you've explained that "demon-haunted" was actually an alchemy term for "crap's broke and we don't know why," and that the book's really more about UFOs than religion, they've already clammed up..
I recently struck up a conversation on Facebook with an old high school friend. She spent 15 years on a mission in Thailand and works in personnel for the missionary group now in Colorado. She has four great kids (only 1 under 18), wonderful husband and is an all-around swell person.
Recently, she got to talking to me about Jesus. According to her, I can be saved if I accept Jesus into my heart and whatever. I have tried to politely explain the null hypothesis and the lack of proof that any god exists.
It came down to this, she chaleneged me to read the entire New Testament (Romans first, for some reason). In return, I got to pick a book for her to read.
I didn't want to hit her with anything overly confrontational like "Why People Believe Weird Things" or anything too philosophical and inaccessable like Kierkegard's "Fear and Trembling."
So, my choice for her was "Sirens of Titan" by Kurt Vonnegut.
What would you have suggested?
To read the entire new testament is quite a snoot full. I would counter her by offering to read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It captures the essence Christianity and is also an interesting and entertaining read.