Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[Meadmaker]

If they want to compete with the girls, then yes they need to be undergoing transition and have a testosterone and Estrogen level within normal ranges of their target gender. Same as IOC rules.

Bruce Jenner is an adult, so that makes things different. If you want to start a thread about where Adult transgenders should be able to compete, then fine, but this one is about Teens and the biology involved is different because of their age and the body's plastic state through early teens and puberty. How about sticking to the topic in this thread?

Ever since I watched eighth grade wrestlers taking laxatives trying to make a weight target before a match, I thought there was some very weird stuff going on in order to meet some arbitrary definition of "fair".

Now we can have people medically adjusting hormone levels in order to maintain eligibility.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Ever since I watched eighth grade wrestlers taking laxatives trying to make a weight target before a match, I thought there was some very weird stuff going on in order to meet some arbitrary definition of "fair".

Now we can have people medically adjusting hormone levels in order to maintain eligibility.

They aren't, they have medically adjusted hormone levels so that their bodies will grow to mimic that of their target gender. To compete they need to show that they are within the same range of hormone levels as everyone else that is eligible.

 

[Darat]

I'm not sure this comparison is valid.

In the case of the effects of medication making the performance of a skilled occupation potentially dangerous, the consideration is the danger, both to the person in question, and anyone subject to their performance.

In the case of a trans-male who is undergoing puberty taking HRT to bring their bodies to within the physiological norms for a cis male there is no such concern.

No one would be being protected from the effects of his treatment by allowing the boy to compete as a male.

.

They are having necessary medical treatment, if that medical treatment means they can't compete given the rules that's is a "too bad". This has nothing to do if they are male/female etc. it is the medical treatment that excludes them.

 

[Belz...]

Your ignorance is showing.

We're talking about teenagers, their bodies are undergoing changes as they become adults, and those who have identified as transgender at this age don't ever become "a boy and has the muscle and bone structure to prove it."

They have puberty stopped and then proceed through puberty as their target gender so they never get the bone structure or muscle structure of their birth sex, but rather that of the target sex.

That's not "ignorance", that simply depends on whether they actually transition before or during puberty. And I've already voiced my opinion on this before: I don't think children are mature enough to make this sort of life-altering decision. Hell, we don't even let them drive cars.

 

[quadraginta]

That's not "ignorance", that simply depends on whether they actually transition before or during puberty. And I've already voiced my opinion on this before: I don't think children are mature enough to make this sort of life-altering decision. Hell, we don't even let them drive cars.

At sixteen? Or fifteen?

Maybe it's different where you are, but there are plenty of sixteen year olds driving cars in other places. Sixteen is old enough to be tried in adult court. In most states (and maybe most of the Western world) with the proper approvals it is old enough to get married. How about that for "life-altering"?

The only medical treatments used with regard to elective gender reassignment for anyone below the age of reasonable informed consent are fully reversible ones which are intended to delay the irreversible effects of puberty until such time as the individual is determined to be old enough to offer informed consent.

The treatments themselves do nothing irreversible. Therefore not "life-altering".

 

[Belz...]

At sixteen?

A while ago I was told that we're talking about kids young enough so that their hormones haven't kicked in yet and the differences between boys and girls are irrelevant. So which is it?

The treatments themselves do nothing irreversible. Therefore not "life-altering".

The two aren't mutually-exclusive. Marriage is life-altering but it sure is reversible.

 

[quadraginta]

A while ago I was told that we're talking about kids young enough so that their hormones haven't kicked in yet and the differences between boys and girls are irrelevant. So which is it?

If their hormones haven't kicked in yet then what life-altering treatment do you think they are receiving? Are you talking about counseling?

There isn't any need for any physiological treatments until it becomes necessary to delay the hormones kicking in. No life-altering changes involved there either.

The two aren't mutually-exclusive. Marriage is life-altering but it sure is reversible.

Sort of. It isn't like there are no repercussions, even after divorce.

And if there are children as a result (sadly all too common in early marriages) then the effects are unquestionably life-altering.

 

[Belz...]

If their hormones haven't kicked in yet then what life-altering treatment do you think they are receiving? Are you talking about counseling?

There isn't any need for any physiological treatments until it becomes necessary to delay the hormones kicking in. No life-altering changes involved there either.

The thing is that we don't seem to agree on what age range we're discussing:

As far as competing with women goes:
- If we're talking about adults, then I think it's unfair to the women.
- If we're talking about young kids, then I think the physiological differences are small enough yet to allow it.
- If we're talking about teens, I'd say it's more like the case of adults.

As far as transitioning:
- If an adult wants to transition, more power to them.
- If a pre-teen wants to transition, I would call going ahead with it child abuse.
- If a teenager wants to transition... I don't know.

Sort of.

You did understand my meaning though, righ?

 

[Cavemonster]

It's also nothing like anything I've said or implied. I'm talking about trans men.

Apologies if I misinterpreted, but then I'm not sure why you were asking this:

How does one make sure that the person has gender disphoria?

It seemed to me to be asking about people faking being trans to compete. If that isn't what you meant, then what did you intend?

 

[Belz...]

Apologies if I misinterpreted, but then I'm not sure why you were asking this:



It seemed to me to be asking about people faking being trans to compete. If that isn't what you meant, then what did you intend?

I guess they'd be included (some people would do anything for a gold medal!) but I was speaking more generally.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I guess they'd be included (some people would do anything for a gold medal!) but I was speaking more generally.

What you mean is it is about as convincing as zero evidence. It is factually more than zero.

 

[Cavemonster]

I guess they'd be included (some people would do anything for a gold medal!) but I was speaking more generally.

Again, not entirely sure what you were asking.

The presence of gender dysphoria isn't really important if the person in question has undergone a physical medical trnasition and is socially living as a girl. No?

 

[Belz...]

Again, not entirely sure what you were asking.

The presence of gender dysphoria isn't really important if the person in question has undergone a physical medical trnasition and is socially living as a girl. No?

I suppose you're right. The physical transition has to be pretty damned complete, though. And as I said upthread, if done after puberty they'd still have a significant advantage, and if done before I oppose it on moral grounds.

 

[Cavemonster]

I suppose you're right. The physical transition has to be pretty damned complete, though. And as I said upthread, if done after puberty they'd still have a significant advantage, and if done before I oppose it on moral grounds.

Before puberty, the physical differences between boys and girls are not so wide, and one common intervention is to give trans children treatments that delay puberty instead of a chemical/surgical transition.

 

[Agatha]

Posts discussing monopolies, anti-trust laws and government regulation have been split to a new thread here. Stay on topic, please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Belz...]

Before puberty, the physical differences between boys and girls are not so wide

I meant I oppose transition on moral grounds at those ages.

 

[Cavemonster]

I meant I oppose transition on moral grounds at those ages.

I got that.

What I'm saying is that competing across gender lines before puberty doesn't seem like much of an issue, at least on the local school competition level, maybe when we get to international competitions there's another discussion.

So prepubescent mtf competitors are not really something to worry about.

And post puberty, yes there should be some physical transition, I think few people disagree with that.

SO I can't really see where the problem would be, except in some extreme outlier of an extreme outlier situation. On that kind of frequency, it's a case by case basis, in the same way that other incredibly rare occurances are dealt with.

 

[luchog]

And if we stop segregating women and men altogether we have the same problem.

Why not just make universal weight classes that don't distinguish between gender? Wrestle in your weight class.

There's the answer. Although there are some limitations with that as well, they aren't as pronounced, and may confer advantages as well as disadvantages (females having a different center-of-gravity than males, different proportions offering different points of leverage, and so on).

 

[Belz...]

There's the answer. Although there are some limitations with that as well, they aren't as pronounced, and may confer advantages as well as disadvantages (females having a different center-of-gravity than males, different proportions offering different points of leverage, and so on).

Except that if you do this across the board you'll seldom have female champions in any sport. The point of segregation is to have women have equal shares in medals.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There's the answer. Although there are some limitations with that as well, they aren't as pronounced, and may confer advantages as well as disadvantages (females having a different center-of-gravity than males, different proportions offering different points of leverage, and so on).

Except that if you do this across the board you'll seldom have female champions in any sport. The point of segregation is to have women have equal shares in medals.

Mmm... I dunno. An equal weight female might have an advantage in greco-roman wrestling or in jujitsu. Lower body strength tends to be higher in women due to physical structure, where men tend to have higher upper body strength. When it comes to wrestling, I don't think upper-body confers a significant advantage. Could be wrong though. All of my wrestling has been of the consensual sort...

That said, if we're talking teenagers the risk might be more of the embarrassing physical reaction to rolling around on the floor with someone you find attractive.