Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[marplots]

Didn't say that was the case. But, if a kid has the skills to make the team, its wrong to deny that kid the opportunity to compete simply because a doctor wrongly decided "yep, we're making this one female" when that kid was an infant.

But don't forget, "being female" is a medical condition requiring treatment to resolve.

 

[Cavemonster]

How about the child who wants to compete as a girl but who was born a boy and has the muscle and bone structure to prove it? Would it be fair the other way around?



They're a rarity to begin with. But these numbers of yours are just made up. I wouldn't pretend to know how many there are, but how much of a transition must someone engage in in order to be accepted? How does one make sure that the person has gender disphoria?

Do you honestly think that a meaningfully large number of cis boys want to live their lives as girls just to compete in girls school sports?

That sounds like an unlikely reality.

 

[madurobob]

I'd like to answer this but it's hard when you claim that the doctor's the one who made the kid female. Aside from a "switch" in the genes, there was no way to know that the kid wasn't female.

Thats kinda the point, no? Doctors for generations have been making this decision *for* infants with no actual knowledge if what they were doing was correct. They see abnormal genitals, think they have to make them normal, and go to town with the scalpel. Theres a coin-toss chance that the infant they make to look female via genitalia will be male in every other aspect.

ETA:

My issue with trans people in relation to the male-female segregation in sports is that allowing a trans male in a male team is one thing, but if you allow this, you allow a trans female in a female team as well, and in that latter case, not only will most be able to make the team, but they'll be stronger and faster than the cis women there, knocking them out of the field. And if we stop segregating women and men altogether we have the same problem.

What this completely ignores is that we're talking about kids. Prior to puberty the differences in muscle mass, bone density, etc.. between the sexes is minimal. So, your argument about mixing genders on athletic teams is mostly pointless in that context. In the example in the OP the kid is on hormones that are getting him through puberty as a male - more muscle mass, higher bone density. So, in this case, we have your nightmare scenario of "males" playing in "female" athletic leagues - and at the insistence of the sports league!

 

[quadraginta]

That is my point. "We" should not be deciding how we make academic opportunities available. That should be up to the individual.

Aside from schools comprised of a single person (counting instructors), there will always be a "we". Governments are irrelevant to that.

 

[quadraginta]

I think these sum up my opinion.

This is after all something voluntary - the sports - and sports organisations will set their own rules. If for example "steroids" are not allowed than someone one requiring steroids even for a perfectly legitimate medical reasons simply won't be able to compete.

I have inherited genetic issues i.e. autoimmune diseases that mean I require certain drugs to be able to function "normally" however some of those drugs have contraindications that would preclude me for example from being a commercial airline pilot. I'm taking these drugs for medical reasons, I do not abuse these drugs but it does mean that I have to accept some things are closed from me because of the medical treatments I require.

I strongly believe that when we can we should do what we can to enable everyone to participate in society to whatever degree they want. But there will be times when we will not for anything we should feel guilty about or consider to be a bad reflection on ourselves be unable to participate in society to the degree we would want.

I'm not sure this comparison is valid.

In the case of the effects of medication making the performance of a skilled occupation potentially dangerous, the consideration is the danger, both to the person in question, and anyone subject to their performance.

In the case of a trans-male who is undergoing puberty taking HRT to bring their bodies to within the physiological norms for a cis male there is no such concern.

No one would be being protected from the effects of his treatment by allowing the boy to compete as a male.

.

 

[Belz...]

Do you honestly think that a meaningfully large number of cis boys want to live their lives as girls just to compete in girls school sports?

That sounds like an unlikely reality.

It's also nothing like anything I've said or implied. I'm talking about trans men.

Thats kinda the point, no? Doctors for generations have been making this decision *for* infants with no actual knowledge if what they were doing was correct.

In the vast, overwhelming majority of cases they know exactly what they're doing.

What this completely ignores is that we're talking about kids. Prior to puberty the differences in muscle mass, bone density, etc.. between the sexes is minimal. So, your argument about mixing genders on athletic teams is mostly pointless in that context.

Sure. That's true. What happens when they grow up, though?

 

[TomB]

My issue with trans people in relation to the male-female segregation in sports is that allowing a trans male in a male team is one thing, but if you allow this, you allow a trans female in a female team as well, and in that latter case, not only will most be able to make the team, but they'll be stronger and faster than the cis women there, knocking them out of the field. And if we stop segregating women and men altogether we have the same problem.

So, shall we be unfair to 0.3% of the population, or 99.7%? That was the point of my post: not everybody can walk on the moon even if they really, really want to.

I get what you are saying here, but I'd like to point out that girls are already able to play on boys teams in many cases. Usually this is when there is no equivalent girl's sport, but not always. For example, my daughter's high school had a men's baseball team and a women's fastpitch softball team. There was a girl that played on the men's baseball team rather than the softball team.

In general, I think it's fairly accepted for a female to play on the men's teams because she doesn't get a competitive advantage. But a male is not allowed to play on women's teams.

It's similar to travel sports that are segregated by age. A 13 year old may play on a 16U travel softball team, but a 15 year old may not play on a 14U team. It is acceptable for players to move up from their nominal classification in terms of competitiveness, but not down. Of course, they must be able to compete at the higher level to do so.

I think this is an appropriate model here as well, if the nominal classifications for athletics are based on sex rather than gender.

 

[quadraginta]

I get what you are saying here, but I'd like to point out that girls are already able to play on boys teams in many cases. Usually this is when there is no equivalent girl's sport, but not always. For example, my daughter's high school had a men's baseball team and a women's fastpitch softball team. There was a girl that played on the men's baseball team rather than the softball team.

In general, I think it's fairly accepted for a female to play on the men's teams because she doesn't get a competitive advantage. But a male is not allowed to play on women's teams.

It's similar to travel sports that are segregated by age. A 13 year old may play on a 16U travel softball team, but a 15 year old may not play on a 14U team. It is acceptable for players to move up from their nominal classification in terms of competitiveness, but not down. Of course, they must be able to compete at the higher level to do so.

I think this is an appropriate model here as well, if the nominal classifications for athletics are based on sex rather than gender.

I agree.

And if only Beggs had been permitted to wrestle with the boys, as he wanted to do, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

"Transgender Boy Gets Trounced in Wrestling Tournament" isn't the sort of headline that is going to attract as much indignation from the 'phobes.

 

[TomB]

There would be a greater possibility of it given a greater number of choices. I think it is a given that if there were zero public schools, there would be more private schools than exist now.

Further, rather than legislation dictating what choices we can make, if the child cannot find a school, then it is the act of individuals controlling their own property rather than dictating the use of the property of others.

You do realize that the school isn't the one who gets to make the choice, right? We aren't talking about intramurals.

In order to play games, schools need other schools. They can't play themselves. To do so, they join leagues with other schools. In high school sports they join conferences who are in turn members of the overall leaque that administers rules for their members statewide. This organization sets rules on how to play the game, how many practices are allowed, who can coach, who is responsible for paying officials, etc. A large chunk of these rules involve player eligibility. This includes academic requirements, transfer rules, age limits, weight classes, banned substances, medical eligibility and gender/sex issues.

I guess a school could allow a player on the team that was ineligible, but that means they forfeit every game that that player plays in.

Privatizing such a system isn't going to change that.

 

[BobTheCoward]

You do realize that the school isn't the one who gets to make the choice, right? We aren't talking about intramurals.

In order to play games, schools need other schools. They can't play themselves. To do so, they join leagues with other schools. In high school sports they join conferences who are in turn members of the overall leaque that administers rules for their members statewide. This organization sets rules on how to play the game, how many practices are allowed, who can coach, who is responsible for paying officials, etc. A large chunk of these rules involve player eligibility. This includes academic requirements, transfer rules, age limits, weight classes, banned substances, medical eligibility and gender/sex issues.

I guess a school could allow a player on the team that was ineligible, but that means they forfeit every game that that player plays in.

Privatizing such a system isn't going to change that.

The UIT that regulates athletics in Texas schools is administered by the university of Texas....The government.

 

[TomB]

I think these sum up my opinion.

This is after all something voluntary - the sports - and sports organisations will set their own rules. If for example "steroids" are not allowed than someone one requiring steroids even for a perfectly legitimate medical reasons simply won't be able to compete.

I have inherited genetic issues i.e. autoimmune diseases that mean I require certain drugs to be able to function "normally" however some of those drugs have contraindications that would preclude me for example from being a commercial airline pilot. I'm taking these drugs for medical reasons, I do not abuse these drugs but it does mean that I have to accept some things are closed from me because of the medical treatments I require.

I strongly believe that when we can we should do what we can to enable everyone to participate in society to whatever degree they want. But there will be times when we will not for anything we should feel guilty about or consider to be a bad reflection on ourselves be unable to participate in society to the degree we would want.

My daughter played volleyball in middle school and softball in high school. She also had ADHD and tried a few medications (none of which she liked, so she didn't take them long). Several ADHD medications were on the "banned" list including Adderall, which she was on briefly. Had she taken the Adderall, she would not have been automatically inelligible. When the medication is for legitimate medical treatment, a waiver can be given. It requires documentation from the doctor to back up the medical need and the dosage given. As far as I know, if it's for legitimate purposes, it isn't a big deal.

 

[TomB]

The UIT that regulates athletics in Texas schools is administered by the university of Texas....The government.

Your point? I addressed that.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Your point? I addressed that.

Government involvement chokes out competition. You quoted my statement that there would be more private schools if there were no public schools. Same with extrarmural sport.

 

[TomB]

Yes, and those private schools would compete under rules set up by a larger organization that will define the eligibility of players...NOT the schools.

If you want to know what it would look like, look at private sports organizations that already exist: ASA, NSA, USSSA, AAU, etc. Or at the college level: NAIA and NCAA (both private organizations). It's amazing how all these private organizations come up with similar player eligibility rules.

In Illinois, high school sports are administered by the IHSA, which is a private organization. In Texas, the UIT only covers public schools. Private schools join different associations. Which is kind of what you are advocating for isn't it?

The point you keep ignoring is that it's not just the school's decision who is eligible. In order to compete, you need a league. And the league will have rules.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Yes, and those private schools would compete under rules set up by a larger organization that will define the eligibility of players...NOT the schools.

If you want to know what it would look like, look at private sports organizations that already exist: ASA, NSA, USSSA, AAU, etc. Or at the college level: NAIA and NCAA (both private organizations). It's amazing how all these private organizations come up with similar player eligibility rules.

In Illinois, high school sports are administered by the IHSA, which is a private organization. In Texas, the UIT only covers public schools. Private schools join different associations. Which is kind of what you are advocating for isn't it?

The point you keep ignoring is that it's not just the school's decision who is eligible. In order to compete, you need a league. And the league will have rules.

And there will be a lot more schools and a lot more leagues once you get rid of the rules setting minimum requirements for schools.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

The point you keep ignoring is that it's not just the school's decision who is eligible. In order to compete, you need a league. And the league will have rules.

And even if it were just one school alone, there would still be a "we".

Unless it was a school of one.

Which makes forming a team a bit more difficult.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why not put Mack in the boys division, but in a weight class that would be comparable to his strength level?

Why not just make universal weight classes that don't distinguish between gender? Wrestle in your weight class.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How about the child who wants to compete as a girl but who was born a boy and has the muscle and bone structure to prove it? Would it be fair the other way around?

Your ignorance is showing.

We're talking about teenagers, their bodies are undergoing changes as they become adults, and those who have identified as transgender at this age don't ever become "a boy and has the muscle and bone structure to prove it."

They have puberty stopped and then proceed through puberty as their target gender so they never get the bone structure or muscle structure of their birth sex, but rather that of the target sex.

Your point is valid for those that transition as Adults after all that is set (though even so, Transwomen will lose a lot of their muscle and bone density when they switch to taking Estrogen and Testosterone blockers as part of their transition) but is totally irrelevant to teenager transitions because they never pass through their birth gender puberty changes.

 

[Meadmaker]

We're talking about teenagers, their bodies are undergoing changes as they become adults, and those who have identified as transgender at this age don't ever become "a boy and has the muscle and bone structure to prove it."

.....

Your point is valid for those that transition as Adults after all that is set (though even so, Transwomen will lose a lot of their muscle and bone density when they switch to taking Estrogen and Testosterone blockers as part of their transition) but is totally irrelevant to teenager transitions because they never pass through their birth gender puberty changes.

Assuming, of course, that they choose to do a physical transition.

Surely you aren't saying that transgender girls should only be allowed to compete as girls if they are actively doing a physical transition. Self identification is what matters, right? Not anatomy. Not hormone level. Not surgery or planned surgery. Self identification.


In all seriousness, really, let us imagine a 21st century Bruce Jenner. This person self identifies as a woman, but has Bruce Jenner's athletic ability. So.....boys or girls? Where does she wrestle?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Assuming, of course, that they choose to do a physical transition.

Surely you aren't saying that transgender girls should only be allowed to compete as girls if they are actively doing a physical transition. Self identification is what matters, right? Not anatomy. Not hormone level. Not surgery or planned surgery. Self identification.


In all seriousness, really, let us imagine a 21st century Bruce Jenner. This person self identifies as a woman, but has Bruce Jenner's athletic ability. So.....boys or girls? Where does she wrestle?

If they want to compete with the girls, then yes they need to be undergoing transition and have a testosterone and Estrogen level within normal ranges of their target gender. Same as IOC rules.

Bruce Jenner is an adult, so that makes things different. If you want to start a thread about where Adult transgenders should be able to compete, then fine, but this one is about Teens and the biology involved is different because of their age and the body's plastic state through early teens and puberty. How about sticking to the topic in this thread?