ICE uses church hypothermia shelter as a suspect trap

[mgidm86]

That's quite the dodge there. Care to answer the question? You say you support this. The article makes it clear they were targeted based on physical appearance or from leaving the church. Which do you support? Or is it both?

ETA: Or maybe you don't believe in rights for anyone and them stopping anyone leaving, including US citizens, with no actual cause is totally cool? Or if it's not, how do they decide who it's okay to stop without running afoul of any of the above situations?

I'm not sure that's true. This entire thread is based on the assumption that this was completely random.

"They were clearly targeting the church because they knew that they stayed here in the hypothermia shelter. So they were waiting for them to cross the street and then jump on them," said Rising Hope Mission Church Rev. Keary Kincannon.

Do we know for a fact that ICE was just hanging out waiting for random people, or were they looking for particular individuals?

Other ICE raids were widely misreported saying that families were broken up when 76% of those detained (IIRC) were actually criminals/felons and targeted in the raids.

If ICE is randomly hanging outside of churches then that is ridiculous. I need evidence that this is the case here though, not some Reverend's interpretation of what he saw. I may have missed such evidence in this thread so please point it out if I did.

 

[Andy_Ross]

America has its own Gestapo. Cool.

 

[marplots]

And if a few homeless people or other people needing emergency services die along the way because they're scared off it's just "collateral damage", right?

I missed that part of the story. If it's true, that this raid means people will die, then we shouldn't be doing it. A parallel might be the watering stations in the desert near the border - which I support.

So, is it true? Is freezing to death a foreseeable consequence? Because, you know, I hate it when people just push my fear button without anything to back it up.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Illegal immigrants have no civil rights at all.

False. Repeatedly decided by the courts.

Did they seek out only the brown ones outside of this shelter? There's no evidence of that.

Obviously you didn't read the article.

Food assistance is less than 1% of all government spending.

When you count up all the rebates, allowances, special tax reductions, etc, we spend ~$1000 for every corporation compared to every $1 we spend on assistance to the poor.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2...-family-pays-6000-year-subsidies-big-business

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/19844-food-stamps-are-affordable-corporate-welfare-is-not

That's your evidence? You talked to a family at Wal-Mart? That's not a very convincing argument. In fact I'm pretty sure you were primed for confirmation bias.

I intrinsically distrust all "I saw" or "My cousin/sister/grade-school teacher saw [x]" claims when it comes to issues regarding public assistance.

This is the same sort of BS that was used to support all those "Lobster Laws" that were getting pushed a couple of years ago where stringent restrictions (usually on Food Stamps, but some for other assistance programs) were placed on what could and could not be purchased with said assistance.

It's the current version of the "Caddy-driving welfare queen" myth.

The stamps also could be WIC points, I'm pretty sure, which are good for milk and some other products to keep kids from going hungry.

WIC vouchers are still the old-fashioned paper forms, not cards because the checker has to verify exactly what was purchased and that it conforms to the rules.

Do we know for a fact that ICE was just hanging out waiting for random people, or were they looking for particular individuals?

The article makes it clear they were "sweeping'.

Other ICE raids were widely misreported saying that families were broken up when 76% of those detained (IIRC) were actually criminals/felons and targeted in the raids.

Those conditions are not mutually exclusive.

If ICE is randomly hanging outside of churches then that is ridiculous. I need evidence that this is the case here though, not some Reverend's interpretation of what he saw. I may have missed such evidence in this thread so please point it out if I did.

Not randomly. The shelter was deliberately chosen because ICE felt it was a place likely to attract their suspect class.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

I missed that part of the story. If it's true, that this raid means people will die, then we shouldn't be doing it. A parallel might be the watering stations in the desert near the border - which I support.

So, is it true? Is freezing to death a foreseeable consequence? Because, you know, I hate it when people just push my fear button without anything to back it up.

It was a hypothermia shelter. They only open those when it is likely that people will freeze to death absent them.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

So, is it true? Is freezing to death a foreseeable consequence? Because, you know, I hate it when people just push my fear button without anything to back it up.

Notice the words "hypothermia shelter." While dying of hypothermia isn't technically freezing, it's cold and it will kill you, so yes.

 

[marplots]

It was a hypothermia shelter. They only open those when it is likely that people will freeze to death absent them.

Notice the words "hypothermia shelter." While dying of hypothermia isn't technically freezing, it's cold and it will kill you, so yes.

I didn't know that. I see the temperature on that day, in that location ranged from 71 degrees F down to 49 degrees F. Were we worried about over or under heating?

(If you want to double check, the Rising Hope Methodist Church is in Alexandria, Virginia, 22309 and the date of the operation is given in the OP link as February 8th, 2017. It did get down to 24 degrees the next day.)

I'm guessing the actual temperature won't make the outrage any less.

 

[mgidm86]

If ICE is randomly hanging outside of churches then that is ridiculous. I need evidence that this is the case here though, not some Reverend's interpretation of what he saw. I may have missed such evidence in this thread so please point it out if I did.

Anyone? I can't find anything.

 

[paulhutch]

Huh? Fairfax Country, VA is within 100 miles of the "border", according to the feds.

Thanks for the info. It seems strange that they could legally put up an immigration checkpoint anywhere in Massachusetts but it's true (although AFAIK they've never done it).
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

 

[A'isha]

I drive through the checkpoint between Las Cruces and Albuquerque once every couple of years or so. The immigrations folks generally look in and then wave me through. Sometimes they ask "US Citizens?", and then wave me through when I say yes.

I'm not sure if being white is what gets me waved through every time, or the fact that my car has no hidey-holes in it. Maybe it's both. But here's the kicker, those guys are almost always Hispanic.

"Between Las Cruces and Albuquerque" is pretty vague. Cruces and ABQ are at opposite ends of the state, the same distance away from each other as New York City and Washington DC.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

I didn't know that. I see the temperature on that day, in that location ranged from 71 degrees F down to 49 degrees F. Were we worried about over or under heating?

(If you want to double check, the Rising Hope Methodist Church is in Alexandria, Virginia, 22309 and the date of the operation is given in the OP link as February 8th, 2017. It did get down to 24 degrees the next day.)

I'm guessing the actual temperature won't make the outrage any less.

Other possible explanation: printed the wrong date.

The general point remains that you don't use vital emergency services as "bait" to draw in "suspects". People need to feel secure in accessing those services.

 

[phunk]

I don't carry my birth certificate with me either, but I'm pretty sure ICE would accept any form of ID that would show you're in the US legally. Things such as a driver license would likely suffice. In addition, many states will issue an ID for a nominal fee or in some cases for free. That would suffice, as well. BTW, you don't need to be a US Citizen to get either of those. Only that you are a legal resident.

You can't get a bank account without an ID and a Social Security number. There really is no valid excuse for someone legally in the US.

I leave the house without ID all the time. But I'm white, so that's ok I guess.

 

[Minoosh]

Let's cut to the chase: A lot of the Trumpets here just don't like people with Brown skins and funny names.

Making that leap is not helpful IMO. There may be a better approach. Atavistic aversion to "the other" is probably hardwired into the species. Us against them. In America it often takes the form of saying, "These damn immigrants refuse to learn English." Underneath I think they are people uncomfortable with not being able to understand conversations in "foreign" languages. Sheer numbers mean a lot of these scenarios involve Spanish-speakers - who BTW may speak English but revert to their childhood tongue when conversing with other Spanish speakers.

My mom made some of these kinds of complaints. She said parents should be addressing their kids in English to help them learn. But maybe the parents don't want to model "bad" English. I think my ex-husband's German-speaking parents felt that way. In this way he become fully fluent in both languages with a Jersey accent vs. a German one.

I guess what I'm saying, is assumptions can often be wrong and getting our hackles up is often counterproductive. Humans must have a cooperation gene too - look at what we've managed to achieve.

ETA: Look at my lovely weasel words!

 

[marplots]

Other possible explanation: printed the wrong date.

The general point remains that you don't use vital emergency services as "bait" to draw in "suspects". People need to feel secure in accessing those services.

It's tricky for exactly the reasons we are worried about. ICE claims to have a policy of non-interference for medical facilities (a warming shelter falls under that) and were the proscribed distance away. The case would be stronger if they actually raided the church, but they didn't. My beef is in assuming people are going to freeze to death because of this enforcement action. Tragically, we may find out. I hope it doesn't happen.

On a broader front, any enforcement activity is going to have some bad outcomes. Even when the undocumented person doesn't suffer, they may have family or friends depending on them in the US. And even failing that, we might be sending them back to poor circumstances in their home country - a penalty of a type. I see no way to both take action to enforce immigration and simultaneously be gentle about it in all cases.

The question is the same as always - what's the right balance?

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Anyone? I can't find anything.

Because that was never the claim. It wasn't "random", they targeted specifically a place and time where they suspected a number of "suspects" were likely to be.

 

[mgidm86]

Because that was never the claim. It wasn't "random", they targeted specifically a place and time where they suspected a number of "suspects" were likely to be.

I want evidence that they did not have specific individuals as targets. The other raids that I've read about did, although others were taken in as well - mostly criminals.

ETA:
By "suspects" do you mean known individuals? If that is the case then I have no issue with this incident.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Huh? Fairfax Country, VA is within 100 miles of the "border", according to the feds.

What international border, the coastline?

 

[Minoosh]

Hah, with that $2 billion yearly donation maybe Mexicans really will pay for "The Wall." Which, BTW, security experts strongly suggest should be a fence. For drainage and visibility.

Hair Drumpf has stated emphatically that it will be a coast-to-coast wall and forget what DHS wants because it's his way or the highway.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hand Egg.

Eggs aren't that pointy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thanks for the info. It seems strange that they could legally put up an immigration checkpoint anywhere in Massachusetts but it's true (although AFAIK they've never done it).
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

Oh, I see. Thanks.