“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

[Belz...]

You said you made no claims about Spencer or Milo, you've been shown wrong. I'm not interested in wasting time with moving goalposts and other such games.

Wow, that is particularily dishonest from you. The claims I was refering to was those YOU brought up by implying that I _had_ called them fascists, or that them respecting the rule of law somehow undermined something else I said earlier.

As I said earlier, you are the one playing games. Get to the damned point and stop dancing around.

 

[caveman1917]

Wow, that is particularily dishonest from you. The claims I was refering to was those YOU brought up by implying that I _had_ called them fascists

Where did I claim you had called them fascists? Can you quote that?

 

[Belz...]

Where did I claim you had called them fascists? Can you quote that?

If that wasn't what you thought, why say this:

Where did I say that they were fascists or that they didn't follow the rule of law? I made no comment about either of them except to confirm that Milo was often a troll.

If fascists don't follow the rule of your law then either Spencer and Milo are not fascists or they don't follow the rule of your law or both. If you want to defend your claim that fascists don't follow the rule of your law then you must defend at least one of these other claims. Which one?

Again I'm asking you to make sense. If the above has nothing to do with me, then why ask me?

 

[caveman1917]

Again I'm asking you to make sense. If the above has nothing to do with me, then why ask me?

Why would you think it has nothing to do with you? You did say that fascists don't respect the rule of your law. You've now changed that claim to that they "as a rule don't" so the point is moot anyway.

 

[Belz...]

Why would you think it has nothing to do with you?

You just said "Where did I claim you had called them fascists?"

Again, what in the blue hell are you babbling about?

You did say that fascists don't respect the rule of your law. You've now changed that claim to that they "as a rule don't" so the point is moot anyway.

Are you able to participate honestly in a conversation, or is "winning" the only goal you have? You're the one who suggested that fascists respect the rule of law. The point of fascism is taking power so no, they don't respect the rule of law. Again, I'm asking you to make your point rather than try to score points.

 

[Praktik]

Great perspective from a long-time observer of fascism and the far-right in America who was there:

Fight Fascists With Mockery, Not the Violence That Feeds Them

Offers a useful template from a nazi rally that was essentially smothered with mockery and suggests perhaps this is a more effective tactic than face-punching and ski-mask thuggery.

 

[Giz]

Great perspective from a long-time observer of fascism and the far-right in America who was there:

Fight Fascists With Mockery, Not the Violence That Feeds Them

Offers a useful template from a nazi rally that was essentially smothered with mockery and suggests perhaps this is a more effective tactic than face-punching and ski-mask thuggery.

Freakonomics had a similar piece on the Klan.

Sounds both more effective and less thuggy.

 

[dudalb]

Remember Superman vs the Ku Klux Klan?

http://mentalfloss.com/article/23157/how-superman-defeated-ku-klux-klan

 

[varwoche]

Uke2se, I don't mean to flog a dead horse, but I would like to make sure our misunderstanding is cleared up.

In what way does Trump complicate the discussion of the recent anti-speech violence in Berkeley?

I'm unable to say to uke2se -- Relax, right-wing extremists don't hold real power in the USA.

Why are you unable to say it to me? You just did. You are wrong. In fact, they are in charge in the US.

If your doctor told you I'm unable to tell you that you will live to see your next birthday, would you respond Outstanding, or maybe more along the lines of Damn ?

 

[theprestige]

Uke2se, I don't mean to flog a dead horse, but I would like to make sure our misunderstanding is cleared up.

​

If your doctor told you I'm unable to tell you that you will live to see your next birthday, would you respond Outstanding, or maybe more along the lines of Damn ?

Heh. There's definitely something complicating the conversation. I don't think it's Trump, though.

 

[Giz]

Heh. There's definitely something complicating the conversation. I don't think it's Trump, though.

That's because he doesn't use bigly words.

 

[Suddenly]

Offers a useful template from a nazi rally that was essentially smothered with mockery and suggests perhaps this is a more effective tactic than face-punching and ski-mask thuggery.

It absolutely is. Making nazis look like a bunch of fools is the solution to people wanting to be nazis.

The breaking of windows isn't all that useful if we are looking at the big picture. It is pointless. Fair enough.

Setting legalities aside, the specific event of Spencer getting punched in the face is a different story. The effect was more mockery than thuggery. Whatever the intention of the guy doing the hitting, the effect was more comic than vicious.

The value of Spencer getting punched in the face wasn't the violence as much as the embarrassment and humiliation of a movement that worships strength and innate superiority. Had Spencer been hit in the face with a pipe and wound up in the hospital with serious injuries, then it might have had propaganda value. Same if the whole black bloc had beaten him to a pulp. That didn't happen. This was more like being hit in the face with a pie. That would also be illegal, but the added comic element makes it more clearly intended as a statement of contempt than intentional harm.

Those wringing their hands over this making the nazis look sympathetic are largely creating the problem they are worried about. Rank and file nazis become nazis because they are frustrated with their lives and are looking for a way to feel superior. Having the country laugh at you when someone shows you physical disrespect is not good recruitment material for these groups. It speaks to them in the language they most understand.

 

[dudalb]

It absolutely is. Making nazis look like a bunch of fools is the solution to people wanting to be nazis.

.

Which was why making the Klan the villians on the Superman radio show was such a brilliant move. Particulary with a reporter who had infiltrated the Klan feeding the writers inside information....like the top secret Klan password.

 

[Giz]

Which was why making the Klan the villians on the Superman radio show was such a brilliant move. Particulary with a reporter who had infiltrated the Klan feeding the writers inside information....like the top secret Klan password.

That's what the Freakonomics article said: it made Klan membership look ridiculous to the Klansmen's children.

 

[dudalb]

That's what the Freakonomics article said: it made Klan membership look ridiculous to the Klansmen's children.

One history of the KKK describes Klam Members getting upset when they heard the Neighborhood kids shout out the top secret password he just paid five bucks to get while playing Superman beating up on the KKK.

 

[Polaris]

One history of the KKK describes Klam Members getting upset when they heard the Neighborhood kids shout out the top secret password he just paid five bucks to get while playing Superman beating up on the KKK.

Is that the organization for the wives?

 

[mgidm86]

So just wondering, have any of the ******** stopped because of the stopped events or punched faces?

If not then it's kinda obvious is not effective and this garbage just gets them more press.

Agreed. I didn't know anything about Milo until the Berkeley thing. I didn't know what he talked about in his speeches until after I'd started this thread. It didn't matter and still doesn't.

The thugs are doing his work for him. It was great publicity for Milo.

 

[Suddenly]

Agreed. I didn't know anything about Milo until the Berkeley thing. I didn't know what he talked about in his speeches until after I'd started this thread. It didn't matter and still doesn't.

The thugs are doing his work for him. It was great publicity for Milo.

Now knowing that, what do you think of Milo?

If you find him loathsome, doesn't it follow that others will? The whole problem with the alt-right at this point is that they are still somewhat under the radar as to far too many people. If this sort of thing makes people like Milo or Richard Spencer the publicly accepted face of this movement, great. Then making the alt-right look like a bunch of silly fools becomes that much easier. Not only does it present specific targets on which to concentrate efforts, the public perception that these guys are leaders will continue to fragment the far right as they bicker among themselves.

If this means a few people get famous, so it goes. History needs individual villains, arguably more than it needs individual heroes.

 

[Suddenly]

Which was why making the Klan the villians on the Superman radio show was such a brilliant move. Particulary with a reporter who had infiltrated the Klan feeding the writers inside information....like the top secret Klan password.

It helped that the Klan was cartoonishly ridiculous with all the names starting with K and all the treehouse seekrit society level organization.

The Southern Poverty Law Center leading lawsuits against existing Klan organizations was an effective mopping up.

Over the past 25 years, the SPLC has crippled some of the nation's largest and most violent hate groups by helping victims of racial violence sue for monetary damages. Its victories include a $7 million verdict against the United Klans of America in 1987 for the lynching of Michael Donald in Mobile, Ala.; a $12.4 million verdict against the White Aryan Resistance in 1990 for the brutal murder of an Ethiopian student in Portland; and a $6.3 million verdict against the Aryan Nations in 2000 that forced the organization to give up its 20-acre compound in Idaho.

Link

The alt-right will not be as easy to be made to look absurd. I'm not sure what to do about that besides explain to people on a personal basis who they are and why they idiots.

However, if any identifiable hate group does anything violent in my neck of the woods, or for that matter something I think I can get into court at all, I'm either going to coordinate the lawsuit or return to practice and do it myself, as the SPLC doesn't have a presence here. That's more my speed when it comes to punching nazis.

 

[sadhatter]

It absolutely is. Making nazis look like a bunch of fools is the solution to people wanting to be nazis.

The breaking of windows isn't all that useful if we are looking at the big picture. It is pointless. Fair enough.

Setting legalities aside, the specific event of Spencer getting punched in the face is a different story. The effect was more mockery than thuggery. Whatever the intention of the guy doing the hitting, the effect was more comic than vicious.

The value of Spencer getting punched in the face wasn't the violence as much as the embarrassment and humiliation of a movement that worships strength and innate superiority. Had Spencer been hit in the face with a pipe and wound up in the hospital with serious injuries, then it might have had propaganda value. Same if the whole black bloc had beaten him to a pulp. That didn't happen. This was more like being hit in the face with a pie. That would also be illegal, but the added comic element makes it more clearly intended as a statement of contempt than intentional harm.

Those wringing their hands over this making the nazis look sympathetic are largely creating the problem they are worried about. Rank and file nazis become nazis because they are frustrated with their lives and are looking for a way to feel superior. Having the country laugh at you when someone shows you physical disrespect is not good recruitment material for these groups. It speaks to them in the language they most understand.

So had it worked yet? Have any of these people given up or faded politically?

Because from here I see lots of people talking about folks I hadn't heard of 6 months ago.

Who did these actions help and how did they do so.