Papers Please

[Skeptic Ginger]

If improper deportations of US citizens rises under Trump, I won't just admit I was wrong, I will start carrying my passport everywhere. I'll also engage in activism for the civil rights of US citizens.

As for illegal immigrants, I support increased deportation.

ETA: Increased deportation and mistakes don't necessarily go hand in hand. Proper investigation along with training on awareness of actions that can be improper should be part of any increased deportation plan.

Define your parameters, given we've already documented an increase under Trump.

Do you not give a crap about a mother of two US citizens, who had been here since she was 16, deported because 8 years ago she tried to work using a false SSN?

Are you only counting an increase in false deportations?

 

[banquetbear]

Or collapse while jogging.

8 things you should carry on a run
1. Identification. Running with some sort of ID is a must — especially if you have allergies or a medical conditions. In an emergency situation, this is how first responders will identify you and get a hold of your loved ones.
http://blog.walkjogrun.net/2013/06/25/8-items-you-need-for-a-run/

But yeah, totally the same as getting sawn up by a whacko.

...can you take a guess why a joggers website would have to post an article recommending that joggers take ID with them when they jog?

Its because joggers don't take ID with them when they jog. Just like most joggers don't stash money in their shoes. Or routinely carry self-defense items.

Your cite doesn't prove your point. It disproves your point. It literally recommends not taking your licence with you, but to take "ID wrist bands, ankle bands, or pendants that clip on your shoe detailing your emergency info". I very much doubt that an ankle band with a name and address is the sort of ID we are talking about here.

 

[xjx388]

Define your parameters, given we've already documented an increase under Trump.

Do you not give a crap about a mother of two US citizens, who had been here since she was 16, deported because 8 years ago she tried to work using a false SSN?

Are you only counting an increase in false deportations?

Deportations of US citizens is the subject of hyperbole on this thread and what I take issue with. There's no evidence those are increasing.

Do I give a crap about illegal immigrants being deported? Not really. Illegal aliens should be deported. It's sad that they are in the position they are in. They should be low priority and I support paths to at least residence for people in her position. But if I used a fake SSN for any purpose, I would face jail time. Those are the risks you take, unfortunately.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Define your parameters, given we've already documented an increase under Trump.

Do you not give a crap about a mother of two US citizens, who had been here since she was 16, deported because 8 years ago she tried to work using a false SSN?
Are you only counting an increase in false deportations?

Their citizenship was obtained via her unlawful actions. Revoke their citizenship and deport them with her.

Overturn the incorrect ruling by a single judge in the 1980's declaring this birthright citizenship nonsense. Revoke all citizenship obtained via this farce when the parent or parents were illegal aliens.

Tabulate how much she cost American taxpayers during her time here, and including any costs her children generated, and send an invoice to Mexico.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Deportations of US citizens is the subject of hyperbole on this thread and what I take issue with. There's no evidence those are increasing.

So you just dismiss the CA legislator who reports being told the ICE arrests were the usual 100 or so but it turned out 160 were arrested?

Do I give a crap about illegal immigrants being deported? Not really. Illegal aliens should be deported. It's sad that they are in the position they are in. They should be low priority and I support paths to at least residence for people in her position. But if I used a fake SSN for any purpose, I would face jail time. Those are the risks you take, unfortunately.

Yes, you've already made it clear you find ways to justify they are not like you, therefore they don't matter.

 

[xjx388]

So you just dismiss the CA legislator who reports being told the ICE arrests were the usual 100 or so but it turned out 160 were arrested?

Increased deportations of illegal immigrants is a good thing in my book. Call me when they start deporting US citizens only on the basis of being brown.

Yes, you've already made it clear you find ways to justify they are not like you, therefore they don't matter.

They aren't like me. They are illegal immigrants. I want all illegal immigrants deported at some point. However, I would support an amnesty type of program for people like this woman.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Increased deportations of illegal immigrants is a good thing in my book. Call me when they start deporting US citizens only on the basis of being brown.

You noticed how you shifted again here from, "There's no evidence those are increasing," to "Increased deportations of illegal immigrants is a good thing"?

They aren't like me. They are illegal immigrants. I want all illegal immigrants deported at some point. However, I would support an amnesty type of program for people like this woman.

You seem to have of thread of embarrassment about your bigotry that you can't quite reconcile.

 

[Fudbucker]

...can you take a guess why a joggers website would have to post an article recommending that joggers take ID with them when they jog?

Its because joggers don't take ID with them when they jog. Just like most joggers don't stash money in their shoes. Or routinely carry self-defense items.

Your cite doesn't prove your point. It disproves your point. It literally recommends not taking your licence with you, but to take "ID wrist bands, ankle bands, or pendants that clip on your shoe detailing your emergency info". I very much doubt that an ankle band with a name and address is the sort of ID we are talking about here.

My point was about ID in general. Doubt was raised about the prevalence of Americans going around without any ID on them. Very few Americans go out-and-about without some form of ID.

 

[banquetbear]

My point was about ID in general.

...and your cite disproves your point.

Doubt was raised about the prevalence of Americans going around without any ID on them.

And that doubt is reasonable yes?

Very few Americans go out-and-about without some form of ID.

Well yes, you keep repeating this. But they are merely assertions. People doubt your assertions and have asked you to back it up. And here you are, yet again, repeating assertions.

I don't believe you. There is enough anecdotal evidence in this thread alone to counter your assertions.

But lets assume that what you say is true for a minute. What percentage of Americans do you believe have ID on them all of the time? 80%? More or less than that?

 

[Fudbucker]

...and your cite disproves your point.

No.
Identification. Running with some sort of ID is a must

And that doubt is reasonable yes?

Not really.

Well yes, you keep repeating this. But they are merely assertions. People doubt your assertions and have asked you to back it up. And here you are, yet again, repeating assertions.

I don't believe you. There is enough anecdotal evidence in this thread alone to counter your assertions.

But lets assume that what you say is true for a minute. What percentage of Americans do you believe have ID on them all of the time? 80%? More or less than that?

 

[banquetbear]

No.
Identification. Running with some sort of ID is a must

...and the article specifically says that the ID shouldn't be your drivers licence.

So how exactly is a piece of paper I printed myself that says "who I am" relevant to this thread? When an Immigration Officer asks me for ID: is that the sort of ID they would be expecting? My contact details are on my cellphone. My cellphone goes with me everywhere. My wallet and my drivers licence do not. Is my cellphone sufficient ID?

Not really.

Not really? So you mean just a little bit yes, don't you?

[qimg]http://www.nestler.com/_Media/plural-anecdote_med.jpeg[/qimg]

Give me a break dude. "I know of no one that deliberately walks around with no ID" is an anecdote: and so far it is the entirety of your argument. "I don't walk around with ID" is a perfectly sufficient counter anecdote to the anecdote that you used.

 

[Fudbucker]

...and the article specifically says that the ID shouldn't be your drivers licence.

So how exactly is a piece of paper I printed myself that says "who I am" relevant to this thread? When an Immigration Officer asks me for ID: is that the sort of ID they would be expecting? My contact details are on my cellphone. My cellphone goes with me everywhere. My wallet and my drivers licence do not. Is my cellphone sufficient ID?



Not really? So you mean just a little bit yes, don't you?



Give me a break dude. "I know of no one that deliberately walks around with no ID" is an anecdote: and so far it is the entirety of your argument. "I don't walk around with ID" is a perfectly sufficient counter anecdote to the anecdote that you used.

There is no data to point to. You have to live here to understand it. No one, afaik, has done a study on the prevalence of ID-carrying. I can tell you, after living here for 40+ years, carrying ID around becomes an ingrained habit because it's so convenient and necessary. I can list the myriad situations where you can get totally jammed up if you don't have any. You can infer, from the prevalence of situations where ID is required and from articles like this, foreigners are advised to always carry ID on them, that Americans generally follow the same advice given to Brits: always carry an ID. But if you want to think there are great masses of ID-less Americans wandering about, be my guest.

 

[banquetbear]

There is no data to point to.

...but there is enough data available to show that you are wrong.

You have to live here to understand it.

People "living there" do understand it, and they have told you that you are wrong.

No one, afaik, has done a study on the prevalence of ID-carrying. I can tell you, after living here for 40+ years, carrying ID around becomes an ingrained habit because it's so convenient and necessary.

This is an anecdote. That has already been countered by other people in this thread.

I can list the myriad situations where you can get totally jammed up if you don't have any. You can infer, from the prevalence of situations where ID is required and from articles like this, foreigners are advised to always carry ID on them, that Americans generally follow the same advice given to Brits: always carry an ID.

And I can infer from articles like these that ID is not easy for all Americans to get: and that not every American has ID.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.2c727bd79570

https://thinkprogress.org/this-is-h...voter-id-in-wisconsin-8be821ef8a88#.2p8p2zsna

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/why-doesnt-everybody-have-a-voter-id/

But if you want to think there are great masses of ID-less Americans wandering about, be my guest.

Well thanks for your permission to hold my own opinion, but it is not necessary.

 

[Fudbucker]

...but there is enough data available to show that you are wrong.



People "living there" do understand it, and they have told you that you are wrong.



This is an anecdote. That has already been countered by other people in this thread.



And I can infer from articles like these that ID is not easy for all Americans to get: and that not every American has ID.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.2c727bd79570

https://thinkprogress.org/this-is-h...voter-id-in-wisconsin-8be821ef8a88#.2p8p2zsna

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/why-doesnt-everybody-have-a-voter-id/




Well thanks for your permission to hold my own opinion, but it is not necessary.

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.6ae1379a3fc9

I don't think you bothered to read your sources. The vast vast majority of Americans have ID's. This is a pointless derail, you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and I've become bored with it.

 

[banquetbear]

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.6ae1379a3fc9

I don't think you bothered to read your sources.

...I think you are wrong.

The vast vast majority of Americans have ID's.

That wasn't your assertion. Your assertion was that "I know of no one that deliberately walks around with no ID": which was countered by the assertion "I don't walk around with ID".

34 million people don't have any form of ID at all. That is a ****-load of people. 34 million people walk around with no ID. Then you add in all the people like those in this thread, who have told you that they routinely don't have ID on them. And all the joggers, who leave their drivers licences at home. And just with those two groups alone we can extrapolate a number where it is completely expected that people will be out and about with no ID.

You are wrong. Plain and simple.

This is a pointless derail, you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and I've become bored with it.

It doesn't surprise me that you are getting bored of being proven wrong. But the derail is entirely your fault: one that you concede when you state "there is no data to point to." In the absence of data: why are you continuing to insist that your anecdote is universal?

 

[Fudbucker]

...I think you are wrong.



That wasn't your assertion. Your assertion was that "I know of no one that deliberately walks around with no ID": which was countered by the assertion "I don't walk around with ID".

34 million people don't have any form of ID at all. That is a ****-load of people. 34 million people walk around with no ID. Then you add in all the people like those in this thread, who have told you that they routinely don't have ID on them. And all the joggers, who leave their drivers licences at home. And just with those two groups alone we can extrapolate a number where it is completely expected that people will be out and about with no ID.

You are wrong. Plain and simple.



It doesn't surprise me that you are getting bored of being proven wrong. But the derail is entirely your fault: one that you concede when you state "there is no data to point to." In the absence of data: why are you continuing to insist that your anecdote is universal?

I couldn't resist. You multiplied the population of America by 11% to get your figure of 34 million. LOL.

Yes, there are millions of babies "walking around with no ID's". This is a travesty, of course, completely refutes my point, and is a clear attempt by the GOP to disenfranchise children. Something must be done.

 

[banquetbear]

This is a travesty, of course, completely refutes my point

...I'm glad that you finally concede the point.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Wow.

Folks here need to take a step back, and try to regain a grip on reality.

Just look at your own posts and listen to yourselves. You claim to be skeptics, yet you surrender yourselves to unsubstantiated panic driven rumors without even attempting to verify anything found elsewhere, or presented here.

I developed a respect for this site over the years because of the fact-based emotionless responses made to the 9/11 truthers. You folks shut those people down, you went with the facts, and you looked good doing it.

But now, I see many of those same people giving in to and going along with the same type of baseless garbage the truthers did simply because the person who you wanted to win the election, didn't.

This used to be a go-to place for objective facts that I would recommend to others, but I could not make that same recommendation now.

Ya know, I've been checking over your posts in the Politics sub-sections and I don't see a whole lot of evidenced-based commentary. 16.5, now d.b.a. The Big Dog was one of the best 911 Truth debunkers we had early on. So was Wildcat. I was pretty good at it, too.

It's not really possible to post on party politics without bringing in your personal biases, opinions and tastes. Politics is, after all, virtually all "opinion".

What you meant to say is "Wow. You people don't agree with me so you seem all like illogical and stuff."

 

[fuelair]

You noticed how you shifted again here from, "There's no evidence those are increasing," to "Increased deportations of illegal immigrants is a good thing"?


You seem to have of thread of embarrassment about your bigotry that you can't quite reconcile.

Noticed that!!! Interesting!!!!

 

[bruto]

Their citizenship was obtained via her unlawful actions. Revoke their citizenship and deport them with her.

Overturn the incorrect ruling by a single judge in the 1980's declaring this birthright citizenship nonsense. Revoke all citizenship obtained via this farce when the parent or parents were illegal aliens.

Tabulate how much she cost American taxpayers during her time here, and including any costs her children generated, and send an invoice to Mexico.

If you believe any violation of law should be enough to deport a person, would you do so for Melania Trump, who violated labor laws while a visitor? Should not one revoke her citizenship? Cost to taxpayers? Send the invoice to the Donald.

Of course I'm sure you'd be happy to revoke the 14th amendment, since it goes contrary to so many of your stated priciples, but birthright citizenship is built into that, and it goes a bit prior to the 1980's, I think. And whether it's right or not, good or not, an oversight or not, the 14th amendment does not specify that the parents of a native born American be legal.