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Papers Please

SusanB-M1 said:
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Recently, some men, British citizens of Pakistaniorigin were convicted of some horrendous crimes against girls. The decision was announced that they are to be deported. Unfortunately, what will come next is years of appeals and a hundred other problems that will be thought up and I wonder whether it will ever happen that they are deported. Their British citizenship can, or has been, revoked or something.
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I have a strong suspicion from the description of what they appear to have done that I would prefer them being shipped back to Pakistan and being dropped from aircraft several thousand feet up without parachutes. There are and they are things for which I have no tolerance.
 
fuelair said:
I have a strong suspicion from the description of what they appear to have done that I would prefer them being shipped back to Pakistan and
dropped from aircraft several thousand feet up without parachutes. There are and they are things for which I have no tolerance.
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I am, of course, not concerned about their citizenship.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That is not a supportable reason to claim they aren't prejudiced. Even in Mexico there is serious bigotry often depending on how Spanish compared to how Mestizo you look. And more than a few Hispanics have sided against undocumented immigrants.


That went without saying. :rolleyes:
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FTFY for accuracy emphasis. The US is not the only country where people just have to have someones to look down on. Even me - I look down on republickers-
though not real Republicans - there are now so few of them.
 
Fudbucker said:
You walk around without any identification? Isn't that kind of stupid?
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NO. I don't think so. If you're minding your own business, you simply should not need it. One can fault people for failing to take some precautions when they know that there are criminals on the loose who might victimize them. So far, at least, in this country, we have not needed to treat the authorities as dangerous criminals. If that changes, it will be too bad.

e.t.a. I realize that we live in a different part of the world from Fudbucker, and can only commiserate that he lives in what appears to be a hell on earth where one must be scared of everything.

When I did a lot of road cycling, I never took ID. I did have my name and emergency information on my helmet, which is how the rescue squad knew to call my wife when I ended my last ride on the pavement. You should not need official ID for this kind of thing. In Arizona, I read, people have been detained for not showing their birth certificates.

If you're so scared of criminals, or of dropping unconscious to the pavement, or whatever, that you feel you must carry ID, then go for it. Nobody is stopping you. Just don't make the rest of us live in a police state to allay your fears.
 
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bruto said:
NO. I don't think so. If you're minding your own business, you simply should not need it. One can fault people for failing to take some precautions when they know that there are criminals on the loose who might victimize them. So far, at least, in this country, we have not needed to treat the authorities as dangerous criminals. If that changes, it will be too bad.
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Your paragraph doesn't make sense. Americans carry ID because without it you can't drive, buy alcohol/smokes, get into a club, get prescriptions (and even some over-the-counter meds), rent a motel room, board a plane, or have your loved ones alerted if a medical emergency happens.
 
Fudbucker said:
Your paragraph doesn't make sense. Americans carry ID because without it you can't drive, buy alcohol/smokes, get into a club, get prescriptions (and even some over-the-counter meds), rent a motel room, board a plane, or have your loved ones alerted if a medical emergency happens.
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So if I have no intention of doing any of those things?

Also, there are cases where someone having an ID on them didn't stop them from being taken into custody. A driver's license doesn't establish lawful presence or citizenship status.

So we all need to carry around our birth certificates now? Or, people of certain complexion at least...
 
fuelair said:
FTFY for accuracy emphasis. The US is not the only country where people just have to have someones to look down on. Even me - I look down on republickers-
though not real Republicans - there are now so few of them.
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My original: Even in Mexico there is serious bigotry often depending on how Spanish compared to how Mestizo you look.

Your changed version: Even in Mexico there is serious bigotry often depending on how Spanish compared to how Mestizo you look.

:confused:

You mean you added emphasis? Nitpick: to do that you highlight whatever and following the quote add, (emphasis mine).

We all have our biases.
 
Fudbucker said:
Your paragraph doesn't make sense. Americans carry ID because without it you can't drive, buy alcohol/smokes, get into a club, get prescriptions (and even some over-the-counter meds), rent a motel room, board a plane, or have your loved ones alerted if a medical emergency happens.
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And yet you edited out the very part where I pointed out that I DID NOT NEED TO CARRY ID when a medical emergency happened. I was not driving, buying alcohol, renting a room, etc. etc. Americans choose to carry ID when it's useful. I do, of course, most of the time. I always do when I drive, because it's legally required. But my wife does not when she is not driving. Why should she? We don't carry it when we're out on bicycles, or skiiing, or walking around. Why should we? We're Americans. Unless we're suspected of a sppecific crime, we expect not to be treated as generic criminals.

Of course, it's convenient, and even necessary to carry ID much of the time. But even for those occasions, with the exception of driving, the use of an ID is not to satisfy the non-specific suspicions of government officials. It's to do other things for which ID is needed or useful. Whether I'm carrying it or not, no government official has the right to demand spontaneously that I have it or show it, and when they do have the right to demand some ID such as a license, they have no right to demand anything else. I do not have to carry a birth certificate, a passport, or a social security card, or anything but my license when I drive.

When we fly, we need a passport or an enhanced driver's license. But we do not need to document them. We do not need to produce a birth certificate or other evidence that those documents are correct.

Quite simply, I think that if you're not being arrested for a crime, it is unamerican to be treated as a criminal. I'd contend that it's at least close to that if you're being arrested for a routine offense, to be treated as a criminal suspect for another. I know that as a white, anglo, middle aged man, the few times I've been arrested for speeding no cop ever asked for proof of my identity or citizenship, and that is as it should be for everyone. Of course in so doing there's the likelihood that some illegals will get a pass, but the alternative is, in my mind, worse.
 
bruto said:
And yet you edited out the very part where I pointed out that I DID NOT NEED TO CARRY ID when a medical emergency happened. I was not driving, buying alcohol, renting a room, etc. etc. Americans choose to carry ID when it's useful. I do, of course, most of the time. I always do when I drive, because it's legally required. But my wife does not when she is not driving. Why should she? We don't carry it when we're out on bicycles, or skiiing, or walking around. Why should we? We're Americans. Unless we're suspected of a sppecific crime, we expect not to be treated as generic criminals.

Of course, it's convenient, and even necessary to carry ID much of the time. But even for those occasions, with the exception of driving, the use of an ID is not to satisfy the non-specific suspicions of government officials. It's to do other things for which ID is needed or useful. Whether I'm carrying it or not, no government official has the right to demand spontaneously that I have it or show it, and when they do have the right to demand some ID such as a license, they have no right to demand anything else. I do not have to carry a birth certificate, a passport, or a social security card, or anything but my license when I drive.

When we fly, we need a passport or an enhanced driver's license. But we do not need to document them. We do not need to produce a birth certificate or other evidence that those documents are correct.

Quite simply, I think that if you're not being arrested for a crime, it is unamerican to be treated as a criminal. I'd contend that it's at least close to that if you're being arrested for a routine offense, to be treated as a criminal suspect for another. I know that as a white, anglo, middle aged man, the few times I've been arrested for speeding no cop ever asked for proof of my identity or citizenship, and that is as it should be for everyone. Of course in so doing there's the likelihood that some illegals will get a pass, but the alternative is, in my mind, worse.
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The bolded, of course, was my point: Americans carry ID around because it's convenient and often necessary.

When I ski and see all those people whipping out ID's and buying booze, they're the weird ones. Or afraid of a police state. Or something.
 
Fudbucker said:
The bolded, of course, was my point: Americans carry ID around because it's convenient and often necessary.

When I ski and see all those people whipping out ID's and buying booze, they're the weird ones. Or afraid of a police state. Or something.
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That may have been your point, but it was badly expressed, since you stated outright that to "walk around without identification" is stupid, and implied, at least, that to do so at any time is not appropriate. My point, should you care to notice it, is that to carry ID for many purposes has little to do with the issue of whether government officials are entitled to demand it. They are not. And your last, facetious sentences quoted above seem to make a point of missing the point.
 
Fudbucker said:
What, carrying an ID around in case of medical emergencies? You're joking, right?
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No, my post made it clear that an ID is not necessary, at least in the sense we usually use the word "ID," and in the sense that those who demand to see ID mean it.

I made it, I thought, abundantly clear that I did not EVER carry ID when cycling, but did ALWAYS have my name and number on my helmet and in my tool bag. The result was exactly as it should have been. The cop looked at the number in the helmet, called my wife, and she was at the hospital when I woke up.*

I hope you're not going to be an absolute idiot and pretend to believe that when an Arizona policeman confonts a person suspected of illegal immigration, he's going to accept the name tag in his hat as "ID."

* e.t.a. by the way, nice cop, a state trooper. Scooped up my stuff off the road, checked up later.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
My original: Even in Mexico there is serious bigotry often depending on how Spanish compared to how Mestizo you look.

Your changed version: Even in Mexico there is serious bigotry often depending on how Spanish compared to how Mestizo you look.

:confused:

You mean you added emphasis? Nitpick: to do that you highlight whatever and following the quote add, (emphasis mine).

We all have our biases.
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Yep, I meant to add emphasis!!!!So I reded it!!!
 
Sideroxylon said:
The person just elected promotes ideas that are the antithesis to skepticism. He has created a backlash among scientists. He also, to put it mildly, rather sensative to even trivial criticism or portrayals in less than glowing terms. His selected team is rather suspect in motive and or competence. He is reportedly and self expressed to be not having patience for details.

These things have not gone unnoticed by foreign politicians. While there is some over reaction, he has been a suboptimal choice.
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Very, unbelieveably suboptimal. Actually it qualifies as subminimal.
 
The Arizona situation is troubling. Had it been me I would have been suing the pants off of ICE for civil rights violations. It's ********** up for sure and extremely depressing that this wasn't big news when it happened. I can't find any further development. I would hope the officers in question were disciplined and that the victim got some kind of compensation.

But this happened in 2010, under Obama's watch. I guess mistakes and even egregious civil rights under his admin weren't newsworthy. Can you imagine now?
 
xjx388 said:
The Arizona situation is troubling. Had it been me I would have been suing the pants off of ICE for civil rights violations. It's ********** up for sure and extremely depressing that this wasn't big news when it happened. I can't find any further development. I would hope the officers in question were disciplined and that the victim got some kind of compensation.

But this happened in 2010, under Obama's watch. I guess mistakes and even egregious civil rights under his admin weren't newsworthy. Can you imagine now?
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Yep, mistakes happen. You going to admit you were wrong when Trump overkill deporting low priority undocumented immigrants and mistakes get worse and worse?

:popcorn1
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Yep, mistakes happen. You going to admit you were wrong when Trump overkill deporting low priority undocumented immigrants and mistakes get worse and worse?

:popcorn1
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If improper deportations of US citizens rises under Trump, I won't just admit I was wrong, I will start carrying my passport everywhere. I'll also engage in activism for the civil rights of US citizens.

As for illegal immigrants, I support increased deportation.

ETA: Increased deportation and mistakes don't necessarily go hand in hand. Proper investigation along with training on awareness of actions that can be improper should be part of any increased deportation plan.
 
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