“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

[caveman1917]

According to your cite. There are others.

Feel free to provide these other cites.

None are specific to the West Coast U.S.A. hommies at question in the OP. The century-old European history does not really apply to the current American practice of anarchism and use of the Bloc.

So say you.

The Urban Dictionary definitions did. Did you read them?

The ones about how antifa are traitors for not standing up to anti-white racism? How exactly were these relevant again?

Nope. We have anti-establishment anarchists that just want to watch the world burn, though.

And? We have them here too, the CCF just recently took responsibility for 6 arson attacks for example:

We claim responsibility for the 6 following arson attacks.

– A bank at Petralona a few streetss next to the consumer neighborhood of Gazi.
– The security agency FALCON at the main and busy Kifisias Avenue, which is being advertised by the journalistic trash of the television.
– A post office Savings Bank at the seemingly police state Aleksandra’s Avenue.
– 3 diplomatic corps vehicles

Cities are history‘s theatre. They are the places where life performs disciplined social roles, played by law abiding citizens or happy slaves in the reflection of digital communication displays’ and storefronts of consumption, while walking predetermined paths from wage-slavery to paid entertainment. Each move we make is controlled by the vigilant eyes of thousands of cameras on the streets, roadblocks by uniformed police and cops’ motor patrols.

In the current conditions of economic crisis, the only currency with a constant value is the currency of fear in the hands of authority. The fear that nothing can change, that we are few and that prison is lurking for those who dare to question authority’s orders. However life is running fast and cannot wait for those who are afraid to live. LOOK FEAR IN THE FACE AND FEAR WILL FLINCH AND LEAVE.

We must turn the cities into battlefields and the nights into our allies in urban guerilla surprise attacks. We must lay mines of fire in all the symbols of this world that keeps us imprisoned. We know that burning a bank or setting an official state car on fire is not sufficient; however the real power of illegal anarchist actions is that they are like spare keys. Spare keys that release people’s strength of rebellion, the strength to strike authority and live dangerously free. This is why we create small militant groups ready for action, here and now. We can’t wait for the soulless crowd; we can’t seek after proletarians that are asking only for a better salary. We are not shepherds for the masses of people to follow, nor are we gravediggers for those who have buried their lives into silence.

{...}

So you're claiming that antifa in the US is primarily such anarchists? Then it seems that either you don't have a lot of antifa in the US, or your cities should be pretty much constantly burning, or you're talking out of your behind. I'm going to go with the latter here.

Observation.

Again, so say you.

 

[Thermal]

Feel free to provide these other cites.

Why? The Euro citations you bring up have nothing to do with the U.S. Do you have anything to support your assertion that the Oakland crew is in any way affiliated with the groups and philosophies you cite? Cough 'em up, it is not up to me to support your claims.

So say you.

Indeed. Much as you assert that articles from the last century and a different continent are relevant to the OP. My observations are at least continent and culture specific.

The ones about how antifa are traitors for not standing up to anti-white racism? How exactly were these relevant again?

You seriously didn't read them.

And? We have them here too, the CCF just recently took responsibility for 6 arson attacks for example:

So you're claiming that antifa in the US is primarily such anarchists?

ETA for your edit: No one except you claims that antifa must be burning all the time. They are just as their name implies: anti-fascists. That doesn't mean, as your edit suggests, that cities have to be burning all the time for them to exist. C'mon, dude. Getting silly now.

Of course not. Anarchists in the U.S. don't typically make press releases. Read carefully: they **** **** up. That's what they do, often employing a Bloc as a tactic. They do not rationalize or make up alternate definitions for what they are doing.

Better question: you assume that American anarchists have the same philosophy and motivation as Europeans. Why?

Again, so say you.

You asked, I answered honestly. Observation and experience. You expect me to cite the website publications of the Oakland Black Bloc? Hint: (they don't have one)

 

[caveman1917]

Why? The Euro citations you bring up have nothing to do with the U.S. Do you have anything to support your assertion that the Oakland crew is in any way affiliated with the groups and philosophies you cite? Cough 'em up, it is not up to me to support your claims.

My claims have been sufficiently supported. You have so far made unsupported assertions about some purported "America is special" kind of thing in relation to antifa.

Indeed. Much as you assert that articles from the last century and a different continent are relevant to the OP. My observations are at least continent and culture specific.

Or you're talking out of your behind, obviously.

ETA for your edit: No one except you claims that antifa must be burning all the time. They are just as their name implies: anti-fascists. That doesn't mean, as your edit suggests, that cities have to be burning all the time for them to exist. C'mon, dude. Getting silly now.

Of course not.

Good, then we can put your appeals to "anarchists who want to watch the world burn" in relation to antifa at rest.

Anarchists in the U.S. don't typically make press releases.

And? Neither do they in most places. You're really full of this American exceptionalism.

Read carefully: they **** **** up. That's what they do, often employing a Bloc as a tactic. They do not rationalize or make up alternate definitions for what they are doing.

Again, so say you.

Better question: you assume that American anarchists have the same philosophy and motivation as Europeans. Why?

By being at least somewhat familiar with it, as opposed to you apparently.

You asked, I answered honestly.

Honesty combined with ignorance is still useless.

Observation and experience. You expect me to cite the website publications of the Oakland Black Bloc? Hint: (they don't have one)

That's because there's no such thing as "the Oakland Black Bloc". A black bloc is a tactic and not a group. Furthermore, publications by anarchists in Oakland are only a google search away, as are anarchist publications on black blocs in the US.

Anyway, if you think the characterization of antifa as left-wing is wrong, feel free to refute it.

 

[Thermal]

{Irrelevancies snipped}

My claims have been sufficiently supported. You have so far made unsupported assertions about some purported "America is special" kind of thing in relation to antifa.

Your bald assertion is to claim the Oakland crew is politically aligned with European anarcho-whatever. You provide exactly ZERO support for this, except for similar fashion tastes. Again, what is your support that the Oakland crew has any of the political or philosophical views you repeatedly claim?

Anyway, if you think the characterization of antifa as left-wing is wrong, feel free to refute it.

Already done. Antifa = anti-fascist. Anti-fascist = opposed to fascism. That does not demend that they are left-wing, just that they are against the ultra-right. A Libertarian or apolitical anarchist can easily be against fascists without identifying with the left.

 

[Sherkeu]

Did the police manage to arrest any of the Berkeley protesters dressed in ninja outfits?

Seems they arrested just one person - for refusing to leave the area after dispersal. Not likely one of the antifa 'ninjas' since they try to scatter and blend.

An obvious question I would add:

Why is their presence tolerated? If so many protests are 'ruined' by the illegal actions of these antifa groups, why don't the real protesters protest THEM?? Tell them they are not welcome. Block their entrance. Swipe their masks. Surely they are obvious when they show up- signs and flags waving 'anarchists are here'. They are practically in uniforms.

In various videos the all-black-clad masked group members seem to go about the business of shoving people (and their cameras) aside, smashing windows, spray painting, setting fires, and all kinds of noisy vandalism - without interference. Many incidents now caused by different groups but with the same MO.

If they cannot be prevented from entering a protest area by other protesters, can't the police hit them with a luminous paint as they destroy things so they can be identified? If the all-black identifies them but also hides them, then why not take that tactic away and color them up into a walking rave party?
Wouldn't marking individuals be better than tear gas or rubber bullets that can affect the entire crowd?

There must be something I am missing that enables them to keep doing it. If I can think of a possible security tactic in a few minutes, there must be many other ones. Ones they don't seem to be using.

 

[uke2se]

Good grief.

First of all, I'll point out that I don't listen to either of them. I don't really know first-hand what their views are other than some second-hand information that gets reported in articles about them.

But first someone has to listen to them to even know that they shouldn't be listened to in the first place. And I am a skeptic, I do my own thinking, reach my own conclusions. I'm not going to take someone else's word for it because I prefer to think for myself. I should not be "pressured and harassed" for exercising my constitutional rights. Protesting is legitimate, "pressuring and harassing" is not, unless you also concede that they should have the right to "pressure and harass" you back. Do you concede that allies of Milo should be allowed to "pressure and harass" people?

Sure, bring it on. Lively discussion on the virtues of neo-Nazism in the public space would make it easier to see who's who.

Do you concede that they should be allowed to "punch in the face" people they don't like?

If they are Nazis, yes.

 

[Puppycow]

Sure, bring it on. Lively discussion on the virtues of neo-Nazism in the public space would make it easier to see who's who.

So I did a little looking to find out more about these people, and found this (from The Stranger, I think it would be fair to call the a left-leaning site):

RETRACTION: Milo Yiannopoulos Is Not a White Nationalist

Yiannopoulos I see as a troll who tries to provoke "the left" by saying things that are calculated to make (lefty) people angry. He's a lot like Ann Coulter that way.

Spencer really is a hardcore racist. He can barely conceal (or barely tries to conceal) his hard-on for Hitler.

If they are Nazis, yes.

Who gets to decide and where does one draw the line though. If this sort of thing is tolerated, it legitimizes the crackdown. It ultimately makes things worse for everyone. It may make you feel good, but to quote Nietzsche:

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

 

[thaiboxerken]

There must be something I am missing that enables them to keep doing it. If I can think of a possible security tactic in a few minutes, there must be many other ones. Ones they don't seem to be using.

Fear of violence/injury.

 

[uke2se]

So I did a little looking to find out more about these people, and found this (from The Stranger, I think it would be fair to call the a left-leaning site):

RETRACTION: Milo Yiannopoulos Is Not a White Nationalist

Yiannopoulos I see as a troll who tries to provoke "the left" by saying things that are calculated to make (lefty) people angry. He's a lot like Ann Coulter that way.

Spencer really is a hardcore racist. He can barely conceal (or barely tries to conceal) his hard-on for Hitler.

Yiannopolous is a stooge for racists and White supremacists. As such, he's the enemy.

Who gets to decide and where does one draw the line though. If this sort of thing is tolerated, it legitimizes the crackdown. It ultimately makes things worse for everyone. It may make you feel good, but to quote Nietzsche:

Anyone who gets caught after assaulting another person, Nazi or not, should stand before a court and answer for his crime.

At the same time, I believe it's morally right to punch any Nazi you can find. If you need help determining who's a Nazi and not, you should ask an adult.

 

[Belz...]

Yiannopolous is a stooge for racists and White supremacists. As such, he's the enemy.

To the gas chambers!

 

[uke2se]

To the gas chambers!

A fist to the face works better.

 

[varwoche]

I feel like if you haven't been following the conversation so far, it's either because you can't or do you don't want to. Either way, I don't see how making the effort would be at all rewarding to me.

How very evasive. It would have taken fewer words to just answer the question. I'm left with the distinct impression that you're unable to answer because you're foisting BS.

Here again are your words:

I'm talking about people who responded peacefully to Obama's deportation raids a year ago, responded peacefully to several different supporters of Obama's policy who spoke in defense of that policy, and who responded violently to Milo.

It's a simple question. I'm not asking for an essay. Who are these people you refer to?

 

[Giz]

To the gas chambers!

It's amazing isn't it?

People are so worried about the return of political violence that they will sink into that mud first.

So worried about the erosion of democracy that they will try and figure out how to have a coup.

It makes me hope that this site reflects the more irrational folks in the population... Because this level of civic immaturity is terrible. "We can't afford to give our enemies due process, rights are being eroded!"

 

[Belz...]

A fist to the face works better.

I'm curious: what exactly do you think this would accomplish? If Milo's a troll, and he certainly is to a good degree, do you think this sort of attention wouldn't play exactly into his hands? He'd get publicity, a platform to claim -- with reason -- that violence is used to silence him, etc. You'd be helping him. Hell, even your rhetoric here ("a stooge for white supremacists", "he is the enemy") marks you as every bit as extreme and partisan as those you despise.

 

[uke2se]

I'm curious: what exactly do you think this would accomplish? If Milo's a troll, and he certainly is to a good degree, do you think this sort of attention wouldn't play exactly into his hands? He'd get publicity, a platform to claim -- with reason -- that violence is used to silence him, etc. You'd be helping him. Hell, even your rhetoric here ("a stooge for white supremacists", "he is the enemy") marks you as every bit as extreme and partisan as those you despise.

He has a platform. He has publicity. He's even got a book deal. If people want to punch him in the face for his bigotry, I have no problem with it.

 

[uke2se]

It's amazing isn't it?

People are so worried about the return of political violence that they will sink into that mud first.

So worried about the erosion of democracy that they will try and figure out how to have a coup.

It makes me hope that this site reflects the more irrational folks in the population... Because this level of civic immaturity is terrible. "We can't afford to give our enemies due process, rights are being eroded!"

Violence is a-ok when directed against anti-democratic bigots. Hell, the US has a long history of such violence.

 

[Giz]

Violence is a-ok when directed against anti-democratic bigots. Hell, the US has a long history of such violence.

Violence is acceptable when in imminent personal danger. Otherwise, free speech and the law should be your weapons.

This is basic civic morality.

 

[varwoche]

At the same time, I believe it's morally right to punch any Nazi you can find. If you need help determining who's a Nazi and not, you should ask an adult.

Sanctimony and condescension do not a rational argument make. Highly unimpressive.

 

[Belz...]

He has a platform. He has publicity. He's even got a book deal. If people want to punch him in the face for his bigotry, I have no problem with it.

Remember when Spencer was punched and I thought it was funny? Yeah, it doesn't mean I think it's ok and that it should be legal.

If you can't stand freedom of speech, you could always move to a country where they don't have that problem.

 

[uke2se]

Violence is acceptable when in imminent personal danger. Otherwise, free speech and the law should be your weapons.

This is basic civic morality.

Free speech works until your rights start to be taken away. As a rightist you should understand this.

People are feeling (the same as factually knowing in the current society) that their rights are about to be taken away. Thus, they punch Nazis. I have no problem with it.