“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

[theprestige]

I haven't read this entire thread. I browsed a few pages. It seems to me that an important point is being overlooked: All evidence is that the violence, vandalism, and rioting were caused by anarchist antifa. Not the leftists at the protest.

Note the black clothing. The covered faces. The anti-government banners. Pay attention to coverage of most riots and you'll start to notice that most the folks vandalizing and instigating violence dress in black clothing, cover their faces, and carry anti-government signs. These are anarchists. They commonly appropriate legit protests for their own cause.

I'm not sure how we've been through so many protests that featured anarchist-caused vandalism, violence, and rioting without this being common knowledge. I'm not sure how the media hasn't caught on.

Anyway. Not leftists. Not right wingers trying to discredit protesters. Anarchists. Antifa anarchists specifically in this case. But anarchists.

Can you provide this evidence?

I'm especially interested in evidence that antifa isn't leftist. After all, anyone bothering to do even the most basic reading on anti-fascism (such as its wikipedia article) will quickly find that it is distinctly leftist. One could even say that anti-fascism is a distinguishing feature of the broad left (anarchists, communists, socialists & social-democrats) as opposed to the broad right which does not feature it (liberals, conservatives, nationalists).

OMGturt1es, I feel you. Conservatives have the same problem with the neo-nazis. They insist that they're on your your side. The other side holds them against you as if they're representative... It sucks. It'd be nice if the two extremes just fought it out amongst themselves and left the rest of us out of it.

 

[Hercules56]

I really don't think Trump is in any place to complain about a lack of tolerance.

 

[caveman1917]

OMGturt1es, I feel you. Conservatives have the same problem with the neo-nazis. They insist that they're on your your side.

If you mean liberals, I don't think you'll easily find leftists - especially of the antifa variety - who insist on being on their side. Quite the opposite.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

[Flak vs Flack]

Whaddya know, thanks.

Both spellings are correct:

flack 2 (flăk)
n.
Variant of flak.

Though flack does have an additional meaning flak does not have.

flack 1 (flăk) Informal
n.
A press agent; a publicist.
v. flacked, flack·ing, flacks
v.intr.
To act as a press agent: flacking for a movie studio.
v.tr.
To act as a press agent for; promote: authors who tour the country flacking their books.

Though I do agree flak is probably the preferred spelling.

[/sidetrack]

 

[Delphic Oracle]

The essence the argument is that there is a double standard when it comes to these kinds of protests. Here's a report of Nancy Pelosi defending Obama's deportation raids:

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/2...efends-discreet-obama-immigration-enforcement

Where was the destructive rampage?

Here's a report of Press Secretary Josh Earnest defending the raids:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-deportation-idUSKCN0Y429P

The article includes a photo of peaceful protesters. If there was a violent rampage, Reuters didn't report it.

Here's DHS Secretary Johnson, defending the raids:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obama-deportation-raids-families_us_568ac49ee4b0b958f65c5935

There's a video of peaceful protesters, but no violent rampage.

If a violent rampage ensued, it would not be OK, but it would at least suggest that people are acting from a consistent, principled position. What would be OK is if the people who responded peacefully to Barack Obama's immigration policy, applied that same principle to Trump's immigration policy.

First demonstrate that peaceful demonstrators are also violent demonstrators.

I reject that they are the same people and are thus required to eat each others' words.

Your double standard is premised upon a hasty generalization.

 

[Ziggurat]

I really don't think Trump is in any place to complain about a lack of tolerance.

How about the people in Berkeley who had their windows smashed? Do they get to complain? Or what about the people who were physically assaulted? Should they just keep their mouths shut?

 

[Metullus]

How about the people in Berkeley who had their windows smashed? Do they get to complain? Or what about the people who were physically assaulted? Should they just keep their mouths shut?

Evidently, if their attackers are on the correct side of the argument the victims will just have to suck it up. Which, I gather, will show Trump whats what.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Evidently, if their attackers are on the correct side of the argument the victims will just have to suck it up. Which, I gather, will show Trump whats what.

Whilst Trump will not be affected. Milo's book is now a bestseller (he hasn't even finished writing it, I think. Hell, he probably has a ghostwriter or two on the job).

And I bet the ad revenue from his Youtube channel experienced quite a spike.

Nice going, Antifa.

 

[Kestrel]

Did the police manage to arrest any of the Berkeley protesters dressed in ninja outfits?

 

[theprestige]

First demonstrate that peaceful demonstrators are also violent demonstrators.

I reject that they are the same people and are thus required to eat each others' words.

Your double standard is premised upon a hasty generalization.

I'm not talking about violent and peaceful demonstrators. I'm talking about people who responded peacefully to Obama's deportation raids a year ago, responded peacefully to several different supporters of Obama's policy who spoke in defense of that policy, and who responded violently to Milo.

I'm not making a hasty generalization. I'm observing a pattern of response over the past year.

Where were the violent rampages when Obama conducted deportation raids last year? Where were the violent rampages when people in his administration spoke in favor of those raids? Why did the violent rampagers save their rampage for this event?

I'll tell you why: Because they are partisan. They demonstrably believe it is not the policy, but the party, that merits an outpouring of destruction and intimidation.

 

[varwoche]

I'm not talking about violent and peaceful demonstrators. I'm talking about people who responded peacefully to Obama's deportation raids a year ago, responded peacefully to several different supporters of Obama's policy who spoke in defense of that policy, and who responded violently to Milo.

I'm not making a hasty generalization. I'm observing a pattern of response over the past year.

A pattern based on the behavoir of a handful of fringe extremists is not particularly meaningful.

Who specifically are these people you refer to?

 

[Thermal]

Can you provide this evidence?

I'm especially interested in evidence that antifa isn't leftist. After all, anyone bothering to do even the most basic reading on anti-fascism (such as its wikipedia article) will quickly find that it is distinctly leftist. One could even say that anti-fascism is a distinguishing feature of the broad left (anarchists, communists, socialists & social-democrats) as opposed to the broad right which does not feature it (liberals, conservatives, nationalists).

Post-left anarchy is what a lot of us are recognizing here. Fascism is a natural target, but that doesn't equate to being on the left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-left_anarchy

 

[caveman1917]

Post-left anarchy is what a lot of us are recognizing here. Fascism is a natural target, but that doesn't equate to being on the left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-left_anarchy

Antifa is only partially anarchist. Anarchism is only partially post-left. And post-left anarchism isn't so much post-left for not being leftist in a general sense (ie anti-capitalist etc) but for being opposed to common organizational strategies and ideologies in the traditional left.

To say "it was antifa rather than leftists" is confused, and shows quite some ignorance regarding what antifa is or does.

 

[theprestige]

A pattern based on the behavoir of a handful of fringe extremists is not particularly meaningful.

Who specifically are these people you refer to?

I feel like if you haven't been following the conversation so far, it's either because you can't or do you don't want to. Either way, I don't see how making the effort would be at all rewarding to me.

 

[Thermal]

Antifa is only partially anarchist. Anarchism is only partially post-left. And post-left anarchism isn't so much post-left for not being leftist in a general sense (ie anti-capitalist etc) but for being opposed to common organizational strategies and ideologies in the traditional left.

To say "it was antifa rather than leftists" is confused, and shows quite some ignorance regarding what antifa is or does.

The problem is that 'antifa' isn't well defined. Antifa, definition #1, from Urban Dictionary:

Middle-class champagne socialist/communist/anarchist white boys who don't like nationalists or fascists. They consider themselves to be rebelling against the establishment, whilst upholding all of its ultra-politically correct views.

Antifa only dislike racism when its carried out by whites, and do not have the bottle to stand up against anti-white racism; leading to many people on the right to refer to them as 'traitors'. I'd rather just call them morons.

Most are teenagers and university students who grow out of the fad when they start paying taxes.

And definition#5:

Short for antifascist

An antifascist is somebody who is usually young, upper to middle class(wo)man who sits in their parents house standing against racism on their computers while sipping expensive wine. Most of them are anarchists or far-leftists such as communists or Marxists (or any socialists for that matter.)

When they get off their computers and go into the real world, they usually flood the streets in packs waving red and black flags symbolizing anarcho-communism, or maybe they just fly black flags or red flags. Since they are too dumb to realize that anarchism and socialism were ideas written from behind a desk and not able to be used in reality.

The full term antifascist generally defines as 'opposed to fascism' which doesn't clear much up, but for sure doesn't guarantee being on the left, except on the assumption that they are against far right.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=antifa

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antifascist

 

[The Big Dog]

See that one of the anarchists was in fact an employee of the school, and therefore a state employee.

So anarchy, much anarchy.

Loser.

 

[caveman1917]

The problem is that 'antifa' isn't well defined. Antifa, definition #1, from Urban Dictionary:



And definition#5:



The full term antifascist generally defines as 'opposed to fascism' which doesn't clear much up, but for sure doesn't guarantee being on the left, except on the assumption that they are against far right.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=antifa

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antifascist

Urban Dictionary...

A link to the wikipedia article on anti-fascism has already been provided, one wonders why you would ignore it in favour of Urban Dictionary. Plenty more information is only a google search away, such as a short history on the forerunner of current Western antifa.

And yes, militant anti-fascism does not absolutely guarantee every individual being on the left, but it makes it overwhelmingly likely. There is, after all, no liberal antifa, no conservative antifa, or other moderate-right antifa.

 

[Thermal]

Urban Dictionary...

A link to the wikipedia article on anti-fascism has already been provided, one wonders why you would ignore it in favour of Urban Dictionary. Plenty more information is only a google search away, such as a short history on the forerunner of current Western antifa.

Uh...yeah. Urban Dictionary. Thought it was appallingly obvious that it was not meant entirely seriously. My bad.

And yes, militant anti-fascism does not absolutely guarantee every individual being on the left, but it makes it overwhelmingly likely. There is, after all, no liberal antifa, no conservative antifa, or other moderate-right antifa.

That does not mean it is overwhelmingly anything. There can certainly be some wine-sipping leftists, but down-and-dirty apolitical types I would think are the majority.

ETA: your link is about Brits from 15 or so years ago. The OP here is about the current Oakland crew, who basically bust **** up at any given opportunity. 'Tis a little different.

 

[caveman1917]

That does not mean it is overwhelmingly anything.

If you bothered to look into it you'll find it is indeed overwhelmingly left-wing.

There can certainly be some wine-sipping leftists

I didn't say anything about wine-sipping. If anything I'll go with beer-drinking, not that it matters, who cares what someone likes to drink anyway. At least judging by the nearest left-wing & antifa team to me in Liege


as well as other left-wing & antifa teams in Europe


Though apparently soccer isn't such a thing in the US, so do you have like left-wing/antifa and right-wing/fascist baseball teams or something?

but down-and-dirty apolitical types I would think are the majority.

And why exactly would you think that?

 

[Thermal]

If you bothered to look into it you'll find it is indeed overwhelmingly left-wing.

According to your cite. There are others. None are specific to the West Coast U.S.A. hommies at question in the OP. The century-old European history does not really apply to the current American practice of anarchism and use of the Bloc.

I didn't say anything about wine-sipping. If anything I'll go with beer-drinking, not that it matters, who cares what someone likes to drink anyway. At least judging by the nearest left-wing & antifa team to me in Liege

The Urban Dictionary definitions did. Did you read them? Funny.

Though apparently soccer isn't such a thing in the US, so do you have like left-wing/antifa and right-wing/fascist baseball teams or something?

Nope. We have anti-establishment anarchists that just want to watch the world burn, though. No pretense to socio-political sport teams or lofty ideology (with or without sipping wine).

And why exactly would you think that?

Observation. And experience from my youth, from back when circling the letter A was your kindergarten classwork (JK).