Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The policy of not blaming Islam you mean? No one blames Muslims and no one speaks of blaming Muslims, least of all me. The policy has been around since forever, and it has done the most damage in the past few years. It behaves as an exponential function, the effects are very mild early on, but it eventually explodes.

Not blaming Islam is an underlying cause, because it allowed Muslims and deniers to pretend Islam is not to blame for Islamic terrorism. The problem is that Islam is the main reason for Islamic terrorism, and the policy of not blaming Islam allowed Muslims to pretend it isn't for so long that enough anger accumulated to lead to massive problems which downright threaten our way of life, our civilization.

I warned of this several times over.

McHrozni

Your response to being accused of an argument from assertion is to repeat the assertion and then wonder why you convince no one?

 

[McHrozni]

Not simply that Muslims have to be seen to oppose terrorism.

They have to be seen as explicitly opposed to Islamic terrorism - by name. Generic terrorism doesn't do the trick, not any more.

This does amount to being opposed to their religion, but I told you we can drop this if you're so opposed to it. It's not an important point at all.

McHrozni

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Denouncing terrorists and denouncing Islam are one and the same. Scrap that out of my argument if it bothers you: they must be truly opposed to terrorists produced by their religion.

Do you understand how word-concept association works?

If I denounce Timothy McVeigh (a terrorist), am I denouncing Islam (a religion that Timothy McVeigh did not practice to my knowledge)?

Can I denounce Islam and have it be understood that in doing so I am indicating disapproval of what just happened at a Mosque in Canada?

That would be absurd, right?

It's the same thing, but I'm fine if it's put that way if it makes you feel better.

McHrozni

You've got a lot of things you think are 'the same thing', don't you?

Fits very well with your not seeing how making conclusions that clearly derive from hasty generalization are flawed. What I love the most is you deny it, which if true, means you've just taken away the only support for your conclusion.

Oops...

 

[McHrozni]

Your response to being accused of an argument from assertion is to repeat the assertion and then wonder why you convince no one?

Can you cite the assertion I supposedly make that needs further evidence?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Do you understand how word-concept association works?

If I denounce Timothy McVeigh (a terrorist), am I denouncing Islam (a religion that Timothy McVeigh did not practice to my knowledge)?

Can I denounce Islam and have it be understood that in doing so I am indicating disapproval of what just happened at a Mosque in Canada?

That would be absurd, right?

Right

I wish to amend my post in the following manner, it should read:

Denouncing Islamic terrorists by a Muslim and denouncing Islam by a Muslim are one and the same.

Happy now? It's what I meant, but I see now that it could be misunderstood if you quote mine me

You've got a lot of things you think are 'the same thing', don't you?

Fits very well with your not seeing how making conclusions that clearly derive from hasty generalization are flawed. What I love the most is you deny it, which if true, means you've just taken away the only support for your conclusion.

Oops...

I don't understand what you're trying to say. What do you think I denied?

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

If no one blames Muslims, least if all you, whom are you addressing here?

Kind of you know ... abhorring such behavior and demonstrating that to the best of your ability being the norm outside of Islam?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

If no one blames Muslims, least if all you, whom are you addressing here?

Anyone who thinks Muslims shouldn't denounce Islamic terrorists loudly and often.

Why do you ask?

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I never said it's a myth, I claimed it's a garbage slur - which is an accurate description for a vast majority of uses of the word.

McHrozni

You said there was no significant anti-Muslim bigotry in society. Perhaps if you hadn't been so quick to deny the reality of the situation and actually denounce the clear anti-Muslim bigotry that was happening around you those people might be alive today. Because by denying Islamophobia you have caused the terrorism we saw yesterday.

That's how it works, right?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Plus, of course, the Pope did condemn the attack immediately - even though there is no evidence it had anything to do with Christianity, Christians or Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.americamagazine.org/poli...-francis-condemns-terror-attack-quebec-mosque

Kind of you know ... what I ask being the norm in other religions?

McHrozni

Just to be clear. One Catholic man opposed to an attack = enough. Thousands/millions of Muslims opposed to terrorism = not enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/muslim-clerics-condemn-terrorism_us_566adfa1e4b009377b249dea

 

[McHrozni]

You said there was no significant anti-Muslim bigotry in society. Perhaps if you hadn't been so quick to deny the reality of the situation and actually denounce the clear anti-Muslim bigotry that was happening around you those people might be alive today. Because by denying Islamophobia you have caused the terrorism we saw yesterday.

That's how it works, right?

If you think so you need to wholeheartedly agree with me to the fullest first.

Do you?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Just to be clear. One Catholic man opposed to an attack = enough. Thousands/millions of Muslims opposed to terrorism = not enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/muslim-clerics-condemn-terrorism_us_566adfa1e4b009377b249dea

The Pope is the absolute monarch of the Catholic church. His word is law, and if he claims this is wrong (and so on), then it is so by decree. There is no Muslim equivalent to his position.

Secondly, this is an isolated incident, not a small part of a massive and decades-old campaign of violence that went essentially unchecked for much of the time as is the case with Islam. This context puts quite a bit of perspective on the severity of the events and what standard of condemnation is required.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If you think so you need to wholeheartedly agree with me to the fullest first.

Do you?

McHrozni

What do you think?

 

[McHrozni]

What do you think?

I think you disagree with me and you really can't have it both ways.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The Pope is the absolute monarch of the Catholic church. His word is law, and if he claims this is wrong (and so on), then it is so by decree. There is no Muslim equivalent to his position.

Secondly, this is an isolated incident, not a small part of a massive and decades-old campaign of violence that went essentially unchecked for much of the time as is the case with Islam. This context puts quite a bit of perspective on the severity of the events and what standard of condemnation is required.

McHrozni

Every single event by anyone other than Muslims is different and special. We know.

I'm trying to remember but didn't I suggest that the Pope could merely decree something earlier and you told me it didn't work like that?

If there is no equivalent in Islam (and there isn't) then perhaps you may wish to ponder the significance of that to your entire argument.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think you disagree with me and you really can't have it both ways.

McHrozni

You might be right. The question now is do you disagree with yourself? It is after all your argument, not mine.

 

[McHrozni]

You might be right. The question now is do you disagree with yourself? It is after all your argument, not mine.

Of course not. For one, I consistently condemn violence in all it's forms and regardless of causes, and think Islam doesn't receive it's fare share of blame. What you argue against is my call for more Muslims to act in the same way.

That this is Islamophobic or somehow spreads Islamophobia is an unsupported assertion. You're welcome to explain that if you will. I won't hold my breath, even though I like apnea diving.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Every single event by anyone other than Muslims is different and special. We know.

I didn't say every event. This one manifestly is, I explicitly said so about Islam in the past. You're welcome to try with a different event.

I'm trying to remember but didn't I suggest that the Pope could merely decree something earlier and you told me it didn't work like that?

He can decree the official position of the Chruch, but not the opinions of every single follower. Since support for anti-Muslim terrorism isn't a prevailing opinion among Catholics, his decree is sufficient. Condoms, who were opposed by the Church for a long time, are a different matter entirely.

Herein lies a similarity with Islam. New phenomena are easier to fight against than old ones. Islamic terrorism is an old phenomena.

If there is no equivalent in Islam (and there isn't) then perhaps you may wish to ponder the significance of that to your entire argument.

The significance is that there is meaningful difference between Islam and Roman Catholicism and the two can't be equated. How does that weaken my argument exactly?

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I didn't say every event.

No, you take the time to individually tell us that every event is special when it doesn't feature Muslims. Your dedication is at least to be admired in that regard.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Just to be clear. One Catholic man opposed to an attack = enough. Thousands/millions of Muslims opposed to terrorism = not enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/muslim-clerics-condemn-terrorism_us_566adfa1e4b009377b249dea

Plus, of course, McHrozni lauding the idea of instantly expressing empathy while with his own words announcing it was probably ultimately their own fault anyways.

So we've got at least 3 discernible standards I can see right off the bat. One for Muslims, one for non-Muslims, and the VIP membership level of being McHrozni

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Right

I wish to amend my post in the following manner, it should read:

Denouncing Islamic terrorists by a Muslim and denouncing Islam by a Muslim are one and the same.

Islam is an Islamic terrorist?

A person denouncing another person who uses violence in the name of their religion is the same thing as a person denouncing their own religion?

Some of the statements you make really make me wonder.

Does saying something like "they are not acting on Islamic principles" count as a condemnation? Are you aware of how many Muslims feel that way (being as they are the #1 victims of Islamic terrorists)?

If a Muslim asks if you could condemn drone strikes and cruise missiles and special ops raids and tens of thousands of innocent lives lost, is your response going to go something like "well, not all Americans..."?

Happy now? It's what I meant, but I see now that it could be misunderstood if you quote mine me

Did I truncate your quote?

Then it wasn't a quote mine, was it?

You also admit the new version is 'what you meant' so it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

"I'm making a correction, but I want it understood that there's no need for me to make any correction."

I don't understand what you're trying to say. What do you think I denied?

McHrozni

The first part is my expressing dismay at your tendency to use two different words with clearly different meanings or two statements that indicate different outlooks and proclaim they are the same thing.

Where I'm from words means things. That place doesn't exist any more, I know, but it's a hard habit to break.

The rest was an overview of repeatedly making broad-brush condemnations as predicate for your 'what all Muslims have to do to get me to stop verbally pissing all over them' plan. Then you'll dance away from the condemnation somewhat 'oh, I didn't mean it like that!' which of course then removes your entire supporting rationale for why they have to do that.

Again, cake+cake for you.

Now that I think about it, that seems to be pretty much the only bait on your hook at all.