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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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From my post #3148 of Cont. 11:

Yet another case, relevant because there were two acquittals followed by a final conviction, with no new evidence, and questions about the reasonings for the conviction:

CASE OF VETRENKO v. MOLDOVA 36552/02 18/05/2010

....Even though the extent to which the {domestic} courts should give reasons may vary depending on the particular circumstances of the case, a failure to deal with a serious argument or a manifestly arbitrary manner of doing so is incompatible with the notion of a fair trial.

.... in the absence of any new evidence mentioned in the courts' judgments, they convicted the applicant in the second round of proceedings, disregarding circumstances which had earlier led to his acquittal (see Salov, cited above, § 91). Therefore, the domestic courts did not give sufficient reasons for their judgments.

59. There has, accordingly, been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.
 
Here's another post, #2256 of Cont. 11:

The full argument {why the CSC cannot convict based on the Nencini conviction, which was clearly arbitrary and convicted over Hellmann without adequate reasoning} would be that the CSC must do a full trial because the defendants argue their innocence and there is a conflict (conviction and acquittal) in the 1st level and 2nd level (Hellmann) courts. Or perhaps CSC must simply accept Hellmann's acquittal.

Then the question arises as what weight to place on the CSC quashing Hellmann's acquittal and the Nencini conviction (which to my naive mind appears directed by CSC). And Nencini IIUC only admitted one new piece of evidence, and it was exculpatory - certainly not inclupatory (AK's DNA on the knife blade).
 
Yet another post on the topic of conviction after acquittal; my post #2255 on Cont. 11.
Excerpts:

ECHR Case: HANU v. ROMANIA 10890/04 04/06/2013

32. The Court has held that where an appellate court {including a Supreme Court of Appeal or Cassation} is called upon to examine a case as to the facts and the law and to make a full assessment of the question of the applicant’s guilt or innocence, it cannot, as a matter of fair trial, properly determine those issues without a direct assessment of the evidence given in person by the accused who claims that he has not committed the act alleged to constitute a criminal offence (see Ekbatani v. Sweden, 26 May 1988, § 32, Series A no. 134, Constantinescu, cited above, § 55, and Lacadena Calero v. Spain, no. 23002/07, § 36, 22 November 2011).

37. In the instant case, the Supreme Court did not avail itself of these possibilities but judged the case on the basis of the evidence given before the prosecutor and the County Court. Moreover, the matters that the Supreme Court examined in order to declare the applicant guilty were of a factual nature.... Contrary to the Government’s arguments... the Court notes that the Supreme Court gave its own interpretation of the factual situation in the case. Its decision was not therefore limited to matters of law.

39. It therefore appears that when they convicted the applicant neither the Court of Appeal nor the Supreme Court relied on any new evidence. Instead, they based their decisions on the evidence given by the applicant and the witnesses before the prosecutor and the County Court. However, the latter, after having heard the witnesses in person, had held that none of the evidence was conclusive proof as to the applicant’s guilt, and acquitted him (see paragraph 12 above). Even if the appellate courts could, in principle, have given their own interpretation of the evidence adduced before them, in the instant case the applicant was found guilty on the basis of witness testimony that had been found insufficient by the County Court and had justified his acquittal. 40. In these circumstances, the omission of the Court of Appeal to hear the witnesses in person, and the failure of the Supreme Court to redress the situation by referring the case back to the Court of Appeal for a fresh examination of the evidence, substantially reduced the applicant’s defence rights (Destrehem v. France, no. 56651/00, § 45, 18 May 2004 and Găitănaru, cited above, § 32). The Court reiterates that its case-law underlines that one of the requirements of a fair trial is the possibility for the accused to confront the witnesses in the presence of a judge who must ultimately decide the case, because the judge’s observations on the demeanour and credibility of a certain witness may have consequences for the accused (see P.K. v. Finland (dec.), no. 37442/97, 9 July 2002; mutatis mutandis, Pitkänen v. Finland, no. 30508/96, §§ 62-65, 9 March 2004; and Milan v. Italy (dec.), no. 32219/02, 4 December 2003).

41. The foregoing considerations are sufficient to enable the Court to conclude that in the instant case, the domestic courts failed to comply in the applicant’s case with the requirements of a fair trial.

42. Since that requirement was not satisfied, the Court considers that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.
___
Once an acquittal is given that demolishes the case, as has happened for the AK - RS case in the Hellmann court trial, conviction by an appeal court or CSC without new evidence establishing guilt BARD is a violation of the Convention right to a fair trial. The CSC would have to overcome the contradiction between the acquittal by Hellmann and the conviction by Nencini, and there would be no new evidence to justify the conviction, nor would there be the presence of the defendants before the CSC. The CSC, to convict in a way consistent with ECHR case-law, would have needed to annul Nencini and refer the case back to retrial to gather new evidence supporting a conviction (which of course, was in reality not available; the only additional evidence was that suppressed by the prosecution, which must be assumed to be exculpatory - otherwise it would not have been suppressed). Thus, the CSC finally acquitted, acknowledging defects in the investigation and the absence of reliable DNA evidence against Knox and Sollecito, and maintained some consistency with ECHR case-law.
 
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It's important to understand, however, that verdicts in criminal trials are generally only of two kinds*, whether in the US or Italy: "Guilty" or "Not Guilty". There are NO verdicts that are "Not Guilty, but somehow Guilty". You are, it seems to me, mistaking the concept of "Guilty only if guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt" with the inquisitional concept of "Guilty unless non-guilt is shown beyond a reasonable doubt".

Numbers,
Recently I learned about the principle of charity aka the principle of rational accommodation. I may have even learned about it here. Perhaps you've heard of it but in all the years I've been on this earth the idea just caught my attention recently. You can learn more about it on Wikipedia if you are interested. I'd recommend it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
 
Numbers,
Recently I learned about the principle of charity aka the principle of rational accommodation. I may have even learned about it here. Perhaps you've heard of it but in all the years I've been on this earth the idea just caught my attention recently. You can learn more about it on Wikipedia if you are interested. I'd recommend it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

Some day I shall have to learn that principle. :)

My apologies if I have misinterpreted your position in any way.
 
For a glimpse behind the scenes as to what this really was about:
Only one month ago Umbria’s top criminal judge Sergio Matteini Chiari was to preside.

Now a very angry Judge Chiari has been forced aside with no public explanation from Chief Judge De Nunzio [image below] as to why.

A wildly wrongly qualified judge, Hellmann, a business judge with just two criminal trials in his past, both fiascos, mysteriously takes his place.

Rumors of foul play are appearing in the Italian media. Has Chief Judge De Nunzio been leaned upon politically? Do big bucks or rogue masons have any role in this?
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...ry_top_criminal_judge_chiari_is_mysteriously/

and it quotes respected journalist, Andrea Vogt as follows:
The new judge [Hellmann] assigned to Knox’s case is no stranger to allegations of judicial error. In fact, he was one of three judges who, in 2000, overturned a controversial conviction in the stabbing murder of Cinzia Bruno, setting free a man who had been jailed for more than seven years.

Bruno’s husband, Massimo Pisano, was convicted along with his lover in the stabbing death of Bruno, who was found in 1993 on the banks of the Tiber River, near Rome. He was sentenced to life in prison, a ruling upheld in all three phases of Italian court process, including the Supreme Court.

Then, a “revision” of the case by a three-man court of appeals panel, including Pratillo Hellman, freed Pisano after he had already served seven years, six months and 12 days behind bars.

The Bruno case is, of course, no indicator of how Pratillo Hellman might approach Knox’s case. However, it shows a willingness to go against the judicial grain that is likely to please hopeful Knox supporters.
Pete Quennell looks into his crystal ball and pithily comments on the 'disastrous new judge':
Prepare for a “messy” appeal at best?


Funny thing is, that the post "Corruption Of Appeal? Angry Top Criminal Judge Chiari Is Blatantly Forced Aside", the one you linked to, wasn't posted on TJMK on October, 31st 2010 as the link you gave above suggests...

A look at the TJMK main page as it was preseved by the "wayback machine" on December 21st, 2010 makes clear that the post you've linked to was added later.
Someone trying to re-write history?
I wonder why? :p
 
Funny thing is, that the post "Corruption Of Appeal? Angry Top Criminal Judge Chiari Is Blatantly Forced Aside", the one you linked to, wasn't posted on TJMK on October, 31st 2010 as the link you gave above suggests...

A look at the TJMK main page as it was preseved by the "wayback machine" on December 21st, 2010 makes clear that the post you've linked to was added later.
Someone trying to re-write history?
I wonder why? :p

Thank you very much for this. I was browsing this site earlier because it is sometimes interesting to see what people said at certain times. I was surprised to read the "Corruption of Appeal" article because my recollection was that until the verdict was announced they had a fairly neutral attitude towards Hellmann; I did not register that there were no comments attached to this article, but to realise now that this article has been wedged in between "For Sad third anniversary" and "Meredith's England" is really appalling.
 
Vixen scores an own goal by citing a newspaper report from 2010 with Andrea Vogt's byline on it.

Andrea is no longer a friend to guilters, and it would be wonderful if she could be contacted to see if she - in 2017 - stands by her former conspiratorializing about Hellmann's appointment.

Now she "outs" guilters. She accuses them of needlessly extending the Kercher pain, by being amateur detectives of guilt.

Yet back in 2010 there was no tidbit from Mignini too shifty for her to write home about, and keep the nutter websites well stocked with lurid details.

She's also the one who wrote back home that Knox had said, "I was there, making it look like Knox had confessed.

The "I was there" was from a secret prison recording of Knox and her mother, where Knox was plainly telling her mom that she'd been at Raffaele's. So much for Vogt's crack journalism.


Andrea Vogt "outs guilters"....? What are you on about?

When someone says, '"[but Mom,] I cannot lie, I was there," it is an indication that there is a need to lie about it. There would be no reason at all to lie about being at Raff's.

Raff himself categorically told police he came home alone and that Amanda did not turn up until 1:00 am, whereupon he continued to surf the net until 3:00am.

Alas, forensic computer experts could find no sign of any computer use after the autodownload of Naruto circa 9:20pm.

They did discover there was the activity of downloading some grunge metal for half an hour at circa 5:30 (Amanda's usual rising time) and that Raff accessed his mobile text messages from the night before, his phone having been switched off since 9:00pm, at circa 6:30am.

Yet both Raff and Amanda are adamant they did not awake until 10:00-ish and Raff had a lie-in until midday, and testified to this effect in court.

Who is the liar, the forensic police, or the kids?
 
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Funny thing is, that the post "Corruption Of Appeal? Angry Top Criminal Judge Chiari Is Blatantly Forced Aside", the one you linked to, wasn't posted on TJMK on October, 31st 2010 as the link you gave above suggests...

A look at the TJMK main page as it was preseved by the "wayback machine" on December 21st, 2010 makes clear that the post you've linked to was added later.
Someone trying to re-write history?
I wonder why? :p


It was posted 31 Oct 2010. I may have given you a link that was linked from a more recent article.
 
Andrea Vogt "outs guilters"....? What are you on about?

When someone says, '"[but Mom,] I cannot lie, I was there," it is an indication that there is a need to lie about it. There would be no reason at all to lie about being at Raff's.

Raff himself categorically told police he came home alone and that Amanda did not turn up until 1:00 am, whereupon he continued to surf the net until 3:00am.

Alas, forensic computer experts could find no sign of any computer use after the autodownload of Naruto circa 9:20pm.

They did discover there was the activity of downloading some grunge metal for half an hour at circa 5:30 (Amanda's usual rising time) and that Raff accessed his mobile text messages from the night before, his phone having been switched off since 9:00pm, at circa 6:30am.

Yet both Raff and Amanda are adamant they did not awake until 10:00-ish and Raff had a lie-in until midday, and testified to this effect in court.

Who is the liar, the forensic police, or the kids?

Amanda casually confesses to slaughtering her roommate like a pig, and her and her mom continue to discuss other banal topics like flight times and shopping.
 
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It was posted 31 Oct 2010. I may have given you a link that was linked from a more recent article.

I have to admit I do not understand the technology of the "wayback machine" but the article about Chiari is NOT there. It does look as if deception is at work.
 
This doesn't make sense, how can an acquittal (found 'Not Guilty') be annulled 'without referral'? :confused:

In Italy, prosecutors can appeal a, 'Not Guilty' verdict. Common sense tells you that large portion of the 10% of murder & serious crime cases (a fraction of the total 52K supreme court appeals) that are annulled 'without referral' will be where a lower court found, 'Not Guilty' and the Supreme court upheld it and dismissed the prosecution appeal. These will be overwhelmingly 530,1, because if there is 'insufficient evidence', it has the jurisdiction to remit it back to the second instance appeal court. (As it did with Hellmann.)
 
Amanda casually confesses to slaughtering her roommate like a pig, and her and her mom continue to discuss other banal topics like flight times and shopping.

Hello? They knew the visiting rooms were bugged - or as sensible people would have realised this was a high possibility - and are obviously trying to shut Amanda up.
 
Hello? They knew the visiting rooms were bugged - or as sensible people would have realised this was a high possibility - and are obviously trying to shut Amanda up.

Yeah they nonchalantly don't react to their daughter confessing to murder, I assume they must already believe she's a killer because clearly they had access to the papers with stories about her underwear purchase.

In the conversation she's actually just finding out about Rudy from her parents, and how they matched his handprint to the pillow, and Amanda is shocked he's the killer and disgusted by him, and talks about never really knowing him, and she has certainly never been in the apartment with him.

So your next contortion will be to explain how she claims she wasn't in the apartment when Rudy was putting down his handprint in Meredith's blood, but was there at the same time when that was happening.

I'd rather eat a pretzel than become one, but to each their own.
 
Andrea Vogt "outs guilters"....? What are you on about?

When someone says, '"[but Mom,] I cannot lie, I was there," it is an indication that there is a need to lie about it. There would be no reason at all to lie about being at Raff's.
Raff himself categorically told police he came home alone and that Amanda did not turn up until 1:00 am, whereupon he continued to surf the net until 3:00am.

Alas, forensic computer experts could find no sign of any computer use after the autodownload of Naruto circa 9:20pm.

They did discover there was the activity of downloading some grunge metal for half an hour at circa 5:30 (Amanda's usual rising time) and that Raff accessed his mobile text messages from the night before, his phone having been switched off since 9:00pm, at circa 6:30am.

Yet both Raff and Amanda are adamant they did not awake until 10:00-ish and Raff had a lie-in until midday, and testified to this effect in court.

Who is the liar, the forensic police, or the kids?

It's telling that you should go back to this long ago debunked myth, and that you continue to take it out of context by only using the one line and nothing prior to it. However, if we look at what was being said;

CK: Are all frames.
EM: To try to make you talk.
AK: But it is stupid. I can not say more because I know that I was there and I can not lie about it. I have no reason to do so.

It becomes clear they were referring to the police trying to get Amanda to say things to implicate herself and she tells her parents there is nothing more she can say because she is certain she was at Raffaele's.

Then you regurgitate Raffaele's recollection from a day earlier, a recollection that could not have possibly been from the night of the murder as an eyewitness puts Amanda at Raffaele's apartment at 20:40.

The "forensic computer experts"? That's hysterical. You mean the experts who managed to fry three hard drives? The experts who didn't know how to look for or interpret data on a Mac? They knew nothing of Mac metadata. And your claim of "autodownload" is, of course, fabrication on your part.

Amanda claimed she turned on Raffaele's phone to check what time it was, and this is why the SMS message came through at that time. You did know that, right? ...right?

Your logic smacks of desperation, but it does confirm how someone could still be arguing as you do. It's very similar to those who think the flag moving or the lack of visible stars in the video proves the moon landings were staged. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
 
When someone says, '"[but Mom,] I cannot lie, I was there," it is an indication that there is a need to lie about it. There would be no reason at all to lie about being at Raff's.


You;ve been shown many. many times that Knox;s statement. in the correct context and intellectually+honestly including the words which proceeded and followed Knox;s words. clearly and categorically has Knox telling her mother that she )Knox( will not lie TO REFLECT WHAT THE POLICE ARE INSTRUCTING HER TO SAY, In other words. the police are telling her to tell them that she left Sollecito;s apartment on the night of the murder. but Knox will not lie in order to tell them that, Instead Knox """cannot lie""" in that """she was there""" + meaning that she was in Sollecito;s apartment,

Why do you continue to misrepresent this quote of Knox;s. when it;s categorically and unequivocally clear that she is referring to """there""" as Sollecito;s apartment<?



Raff himself categorically told police he came home alone and that Amanda did not turn up until 1:00 am, whereupon he continued to surf the net until 3:00am.


You;re aware. aren;t you. that Sollecito is here accurately describing events from the evening before the murder. Halloween<? You are now,



Alas, forensic computer experts could find no sign of any computer use after the autodownload of Naruto circa 9:20pm.


Proof that it was an """autodownload""". please,



They did discover there was the activity of downloading some grunge metal for half an hour at circa 5:30 (Amanda's usual rising time) and that Raff accessed his mobile text messages from the night before, his phone having been switched off since 9:00pm, at circa 6:30am.


Firstly. it wasn;t """grunge metal""", Presumably you wrote that to sound pejorative<? Secondly. proof that 5*30 was """Amanda;s usual rising time""". please,



Yet both Raff and Amanda are adamant they did not awake until 10:00-ish and Raff had a lie-in until midday, and testified to this effect in court.


Firstly. are you aware that there;s a massive difference between waking up in the night and what one would term """waking up""" in the sense of ending one;s night;s sleep<? For example. last night I got up at about 4a,m, to go to the bathroom, then I turned on the TV to see what was happening in the Australian Open tennis for about 15 minutes or so. then I went back to sleep, I """woke up""" in the conventional sense of ending my night;s sleep at around 7*30a,m, And if somebody were to ask me. a few days from now. what time I woke up today. I would without doubt reply 7*30,

Secondly. evidence that Sollecito testified that he """had a lie%in until midday""". please,


Who is the liar, the forensic police, or the kids?


Neither. but actually someone else entirely,
 
Andrea Vogt "outs guilters"....? What are you on about?

When someone says, '"[but Mom,] I cannot lie, I was there," it is an indication that there is a need to lie about it. There would be no reason at all to lie about being at Raff's.

The outing is in Vogt's blog. It concerned a local trying to bring allegations to a Florence court to do with what he perceived as judicial corruption.

However, you also do not understand the pickle you yourself are putting Vogt in. Rather than you doing hamhanded statement analysis, why don't you ask Vogt if she stands by her 2010 story?

Machiavelli on this very thread some months ago eventually conceded that Knox's statement was a reference to her not being able to lie about being at Raffaele's. However his conspiracy was different from yours - he said her mom and she were speaking "Mafia speak".

Who should I believe - you or Machiavelli? Or is the point simply to reinvent guilt-sounding tripe when another bit of stupidity crashes and burns?
 
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http://www.economist.com/news/europ...laws-italys-criminal-justice-system-innocente

The Amanda Knox verdict

Innocente

The overdue acquittal of Amanda Knox exposes glaring flaws in Italy's justice system

Mar 28th 2015

IT WAS every parent's most horrifying study-abroad nightmare come true. The victim was a British student, 21-year-old Meredith Kercher, found dead in her room in the Italian university city of Perugia in 2007. Her killer, an immigrant from the Ivory Coast named Rudy Guede, was convicted in 2008 after police matched him with a handprint in Ms Kercher’s blood and multiple DNA samples retrieved at the scene. But before police had identified the evidence incriminating Mr Guede, they had also arrested Ms Kercher’s American flatmate, Amanda Knox, and Ms Knox’s Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito.

Instead of simply releasing Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito, police and a succession of prosecutors concocted a string of improbable scenarios attempting to link them to the killing as well. At first the couple were supposed to have joined Mr Guede in a satanic ritual; later it was depicted as an assisted rape that ended in murder. On March 27th, after a pre-trial hearing, a trial, two appeals and a retrial, the judges of Italy’s highest court put an end to the case and to the prolonged mental suffering of the two young defendants. The Court of Cassation in Rome found Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito not guilty on the grounds that they had “not committed the act”. Italian law recognises different levels of acquittal; this is the most categorical._____
This is an interesting example of a media report (from the Economist, a serious publication) that is almost entirely accurate, yet it contains this glaring error, very evident if one reads relevant articles of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure. There are no differing levels of acquittal in Italy; there are differing specifications, including but not limited to "the act did not occur", "the accused did not commit the act", and "the act was not a crime because the accused performed it because of a legal duty or legal right".

This incorrect media comment that there are differing levels of acquittal in Italy suggests how PIP may have misunderstood the technical details of the acquittal. The same confusion of the specification "the accused did not commit the act" with particular paragraphs in CPP Article 530 may have also occurred with the Hellmann court acquittal, which was based on CPP Article 605, the authority of an appeal court to modify or confirm the appealed sentence. The specifications are valid indicators of the cause of the acquittal under any relevant underlying CPP article. And the specifications mean what they say.
 
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I have to admit I do not understand the technology of the "wayback machine" but the article about Chiari is NOT there. It does look as if deception is at work.

Actually it is very simple. It's an archive. If you copy an URL (let's say the one for this page in this thread and paste it into the "Save Page Now" box on the wayback machine an exact copy of that page will be saved on the wayback machine's server. The one for this page looks like this.
That makes it possible to tell how a certain page looked like at a certain date and it makes it possible to read blog posts that have been deleted. The tricky thing is, that you have to know the URL of the page you are looking for. ;)

You are right, it looks like PQ of TJMK is trying to re-write the site's history here... :(
 
Funny thing is, that the post "Corruption Of Appeal? Angry Top Criminal Judge Chiari Is Blatantly Forced Aside", the one you linked to, wasn't posted on TJMK on October, 31st 2010 as the link you gave above suggests...

A look at the TJMK main page as it was preseved by the "wayback machine" on December 21st, 2010 makes clear that the post you've linked to was added later.
Someone trying to re-write history?
I wonder why? :p

It was posted 31 Oct 2010. I may have given you a link that was linked from a more recent article.

Nope, this is the link you posted: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...ry_top_criminal_judge_chiari_is_mysteriously/
and it is quite obvious, that that post wasn't on TJMK on "31 Oct 2010", I wonder why. :confused:
 
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