Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

[A'isha]

By trying your best to smear a person who is guilty of presenting a plan to defeat them, and by trying your best to stifle the discussion about it by portraying non-Muslims to be bad too by posting irrelevant information, an example of which is quoted below as you desired.

You're the one that asked "does she want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder?" because I don't agree with you that Islam is the problem.

If quoting your own words back to you is a "smear", then maybe you shouldn't have said those words in the first place.

Please explain how this is in any way relevant to the (in)ability of Muslim families to denounce their terrorist kin after they have committed acts of terror.

It shows that the things you apparently think are unique to Islam (and that make it, to you, uniquely evil) are, in fact, problems shared by other religions both large and small.

In other words, he was targeted because he was an Arab, first and foremost. The hatred against Arabs was probably indeed spawned by actions of Arab Muslims, which, in the small mind of a retard, seemed to be one and the same or something. The way I see it there is a very weak case that it was an anti-Muslim hate crime. The underlying cause for bigotry was spawned by Muslim extremists, but since he was a Christian, he obviously wasn't targeted for his Muslim faith.

Yes, the murder obviously called him a "Mooslim" before the murder because the victim was a Christian Arab, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Muslim hatred.

But nice attempt to have it both ways, by both denying that the murder had anything to do with anti-Muslim hate and simultaneously blaming Muslims for making people hate them so much that they murder even non-Muslims that they think are Muslim.

Now please explain how this doesn't strengthen my case for moderate Muslims to rally against Islamic extremists loudly, in great numbers, and often?

Because the murderer did so at least in part because of anti-Islam prejudices. Really, this is a case for why people like you should be marching en masse to condemn this act.

Do you, perhaps, feel like this murderer has nothing to do with you, didn't act in your name, in no way represents your views, and should not have his actions blamed on you just because you share the same core ideology?

 

[McHrozni]

You're the one that asked "does she want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder?" because I don't agree with you that Islam is the problem.

This is a grotesque caricature of what I said. You were explained this before, numerous times. I can only conclude you know it is false, but keep up the charade in order to smear me. I gave you the link to the thread from your signature, you're free to examine it if you don't believe me.

If there is another reason as to why you sling mud at me and attempt to defame me with a quote you know doesn't represent my views with every single post you make, now would be a good time to explain yourself. You may begin.

It shows that the things you apparently think are unique to Islam (and that make it, to you, uniquely evil) are, in fact, problems shared by other religions both large and small.

Not really, Islam is made evil (but not uniquely evil, this is another fabrication of yours, I actually went as far as giving you examples of worse religions and ideologies) by the fact it inspires tens and hundreds of thousands of people to commit horrible atrocities in it's name, and because when red in proper context, it says pretty much what it's detractors are saying. It is the combination of the two that make it especially problematic. If the number of atrocities and criminals using it to destroy the civilization was negligible (as is in pretty much every other existing religion), the texts would be unproblematic. Similarly, if it was unique in that it would contain absolutely nothing that could be used to justify these actions, but the actions would be as observed, the problem would certainly lay elsewhere - and it would likely be readily apparent and blatantly obvious, just like the connection between Islamic texts and Islamic extremism it readily apparent and blatantly obvious.

I explained this to you before, and you keep ignoring it, and keep lying about me, and probably many other people as well.

Learn some shame.

But nice attempt to have it both ways, by both denying that the murder had anything to do with anti-Muslim hate and simultaneously blaming Muslims for making people hate them so much that they murder even non-Muslims that they think are Muslim.

This particular incident was a bigot hating Arabs, because of actions of some Arabs who were all of Muslim faith. How do you construct this as an anti-Muslim hate crime is beyond me, but it is clear that Muslims could do much to fight against such bigotry even arising in the first place.

Do you, perhaps, feel like this murderer has nothing to do with you, didn't act in your name, in no way represents your views, and should not have his actions blamed on you just because you share the same core ideology?

I have nothing against Arabs, and despite that I have still called him names which are usually derogatory and insulting. What more do you want?

McHrozni

 

[A'isha]

This is a grotesque caricature of what I said. You were explained this before, numerous times. I can only conclude you know it is false, but keep up the charade in order to smear me. I gave you the link to the thread from your signature, you're free to examine it if you don't believe me.

"A'isha, alongside many others, completely ignores the textual evidence that strongly supports the observational data and tries to use the cherry-picked observational data to conclude Islam is not a source of problems. I the approach find rather ridiculous. Does she want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder?"

Not really, Islam is made evil (but not uniquely evil, this is another fabrication of yours, I actually went as far as giving you examples of worse religions and ideologies) by the fact it inspires tens and hundreds of thousands of people to commit horrible atrocities in it's name, and because when red in proper context, it says pretty much what it's detractors are saying.

This is just as true of other religions (even Buddhism). You just ignore and handwave it away whenever anyone points that out to you and gives you examples, in a pretty textbook case of special pleading.

This particular incident was a bigot hating Arabs, because of actions of some Arabs who were all of Muslim faith. How do you construct this as an anti-Muslim hate crime is beyond me, but it is clear that Muslims could do much to fight against such bigotry even arising in the first place.

So when the killer shouted "MOOSLIM!" at the victim, it was in the context of really saying, "I'm sure glad you're not a MOOSLIM! Because that's totally not why I'm killing you!"

I have nothing against Arabs, and despite that I have still called him names which are usually derogatory and insulting. What more do you want?

Do you feel it's unfair that someone asks you to not just repeatedly make disavowals, but to do them only in a form they deem suitable before they'll deign to acknowledge them?

 

[Craig B]

Of course there is a level of protest among Muslims that would convince the non-Muslims that they don't really believe they should take Allah's commands seriously. The only question is what that level is, and can it be reached.

This proposition is too weird and disquieting to be considered calmly.

Try this, for example. There is a percentage of Jews announcing (by annual mass public demonstrations) that they don't really believe they should take the Divinity's commands seriously, as these are found in the Scriptures, which they require to reach to convince non-Jews. If Jews don't fulfill this level of protest, I will continue to hold them each and all responsible for the

obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind​

as Tom Paine correctly describes it in the Age of Reason. The "only question is what that level is" of public protest and abjuration that will convince non-Jews that Jews don't take seriously these texts, which exert such a baleful influence on Zionism, leading to actions that have contributed to the instability of the whole Middle East.

So, until Jews do this, they are in danger of being exiled, or worse, by the righteous indignation of the masses of the Folk, and it'll be their own fault.

Now you have to write that all down and send it back to me - in your own words, please - so that I may be certain you understand it fully.

I can't say fairer than that, can I?

 

[McHrozni]

"A'isha, alongside many others, completely ignores the textual evidence that strongly supports the observational data and tries to use the cherry-picked observational data to conclude Islam is not a source of problems. I the approach find rather ridiculous. Does she want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder?"

Do quote more, if by no other means than by dumb luck you will stumble upon the part which provides the proper context eventually.

This is just as true of other religions (even Buddhism).

Really? Please list Buddhist head-chopping states in existence today.

So when the killer shouted "MOOSLIM!" at the victim, it was in the context of really saying, "I'm sure glad you're not a MOOSLIM! Because that's totally not why I'm killing you!"

I think the killer didn't even know what the word Muslim even means and thought it is another word for an Arab. You can't expect much from people like him.

Do you feel it's unfair that someone asks you to not just repeatedly make disavowals, but to do them only in a form they deem suitable before they'll deign to acknowledge them?

If you want fair focus your life on American Football exclusively and ignore everything else. Don't look for it elsewhere in life. Certainly don't expect everything in life must be perfectly fair.

Is it fair you're a better debater than Archie? Of course not. Does that mean you should only debate at his level? Of course not. Is if fair you're suffering from cancer? Probably not. Would it be fair if we all deliberately gave ourselves cancer just because you have it? Definitely not.

Fair and unfair are absolutely meaningless in this context.

I explained this before by the way.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

This proposition is too weird and disquieting to be considered calmly.

Try this, for example. There is a percentage of Jews announcing (by annual mass public demonstrations) that they don't really believe they should take the Divinity's commands seriously, as these are found in the Scriptures, which they require to reach to convince non-Jews. If Jews don't fulfill this level of protest, I will continue to hold them each and all responsible for the

obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind​

as Tom Paine correctly describes it in the Age of Reason. The "only question is what that level is" of public protest and abjuration that will convince non-Jews that Jews don't take seriously these texts, which exert such a baleful influence on Zionism, leading to actions that have contributed to the instability of the whole Middle East.

So, until Jews do this, they are in danger of being exiled, or worse, by the righteous indignation of the masses of the Folk, and it'll be their own fault.

Now you have to write that all down and send it back to me - in your own words, please - so that I may be certain you understand it fully.

No, I don't understand it fully. What are you trying to say?

I can see some comparison with the Jews as you describe and Muslims today, sure. I can also see the dangerous similarities I already acknowledged and that A'isha keeps abusing to sling mud at me.

You mentioned something about guilt, which you were explained roughly ten times isn't a factor, so it can't be anything to do with that.

Other than that, your comparison fails me. What are you trying to say or are implying that is somehow different from what I'm saying? Yes, Muslims have a bad reputation. Yes, if Muslims don't do something about it, it could happen badly. Yes, bad things did happen to Jews (and not just Nazis), because they had a bad reputation. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the debate at all.

Unless you're saying that I'm right, I have no idea what your post was about. I sincerely doubt you were saying that though.

McHrozni

 

[Darat]

This is better in some ways, ridiculous in others.

Of course there is a level of protest among Muslims that would convince the non-Muslims that they don't really believe they should take Allah's commands seriously. The only question is what that level is, and can it be reached.
...snip...

Repeating your assertion doesn't strengthen it, as I said you seem utterly incapable of understanding that some of us don't share your simply asserted premise.

 

[A'isha]

Do quote more, if by no other means than by dumb luck you will stumble upon the part which provides the proper context eventually.

Why don't you quote the part that you think provides the proper context for you thinking I "want to be put in a gas chamber" because I "conclude Islam is not a source of problems"?

Really? Please list Buddhist head-chopping states in existence today.

Or I could point out that you're only focusing on a specific method of state execution so you can handwave and minimize and ignore the violence, terrorism, and killings carried out in the name of pretty much every religion, not just Islam.

I think the killer didn't even know what the word Muslim even means and thought it is another word for an Arab.

He thought his Arab victim was a Muslim, and hated Arabs because of (in your own words) "actions of some Arabs who were all of Muslim faith", and from that you conclude that therefore this obviously was a crime that didn't have anything to do with anti-Muslim sentiment?

Do you actually believe that argument? Because I sure don't.

Fair and unfair are absolutely meaningless in this context.

Certainly didn't stop you from complaining the instant someone held you to the exact same standard you hold for Muslims.

 

[Craig B]

I can see some comparison with the Jews as you describe and Muslims today, sure. I can also see the dangerous similarities I already acknowledged and that A'isha keeps abusing to sling mud at me.

You mentioned something about guilt, which you were explained roughly ten times isn't a factor, so it can't be anything to do with that.

You don't think that organising and participating in mass demonstrations in the presence of adherents of other religions, for the purpose of abjuring the divine mandate of their own holy scriptures, would cause unease to members of a minority religious community? And that therefore requiring them to participate in such a performance might signify a collective guilt supposedly incurred by that community? You may explain why it is not indicative of guilt for the eleventh time, if you wish, and I will reject what you say for the twelfth time.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes, if Muslims don't do something about it, it could happen badly. Yes, bad things did happen to Jews (and not just Nazis), because they had a bad reputation. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the debate at all.

Do you have a rough estimate of the numbers/frequency for the protests that Jews should have engaged in to correct their bad reputation and prevent the bad things happening to them?

Ballpark figures are fine.

 

[CosCos]

[...] the violence, terrorism, and killings carried out in the name of pretty much every religion, not just Islam.

Apologists like you keep mentioning this. Where? Where is all this violence, terrorism, and killing that is happening in the name of anything else other than your disgusting religion?? Where is it happening nowadays? Are you referring to the crusades from 800 years ago? Perhaps the Aztec sacrifices from 500 years ago? I keep hearing of all this stuff happening in the name of otherreligionsnotislam but it's a fabrication.

Islamic acts of terrorism are happening everyday, sometimes multiple times a day, and all the apologists can come up with is a fabricated tu quoque.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Islamic acts of terrorism are happening everyday, sometimes multiple times a day, and all the apologists can come up with is a fabricated tu quoque.

Example?

 

[Craig B]

... your disgusting religion ...

Oh, dear; you'll be in big trouble for that. I think McHrozni will come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks!

You mentioned something about guilt, which you were explained roughly ten times isn't a factor, so it can't be anything to do with that.

 

[A'isha]

Apologists like you keep mentioning this. Where? Where is all this violence, terrorism, and killing that is happening in the name of anything else other than your disgusting religion?? Where is it happening nowadays? Are you referring to the crusades from 800 years ago? Perhaps the Aztec sacrifices from 500 years ago? I keep hearing of all this stuff happening in the name of otherreligionsnotislam but it's a fabrication.

Islamic acts of terrorism are happening everyday, sometimes multiple times a day, and all the apologists can come up with is a fabricated tu quoque.

There have been several examples provided just in this thread, and this is hardly the first time it's been discussed.

 

[A'isha]

Oh, dear; you'll be in big trouble for that. I think McHrozni will come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks!

But I've been reliably informed that Islamophobia is just a myth!

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Where is all this violence, terrorism, and killing that is happening in the name of anything else other than your disgusting religion??

Where would you like me to start?

You aren't seriously suggesting that all or even a majority of violence and killing is happening in the name of Islam are you?

According to the NYT, apparently something like 1200 people have been killed in ISIS-inspired attacks outside of Iraq and Syria dating back to Sept 2014.

As a global force for violence and killing and terrorism that would seem to make them slightly less lethal than the US police force who killed more than 2000 in the past two years and that's in one country.

Gang-related deaths account for about 2000 per year in the US apparently although I've seen the number go as high as almost 9,000 out of the 11,000 of gun-related homicides in the US. If you add in the non-gun murders that goes up to about 15 or 16,000.

So it seems that Americans are far better at killing Americans than ISIS are.

Per capita the Israelis are certainly far better at killing Palestinians, especially the kids.

But it's not fair to exclude Iraq and Syria right? So let's take a look.

Syria has so far accounted for about 400,000 dead (and god knows how many more that aren't counted in that number) You can work out how to apportion that. So far 2600 Syrians have died crossing the Med because apparently that's preferable than letting them into Western Europe for many.

Iraq? Do we even want to go there? 4500 dead American soldiers alone. Somewhere between 100k and a million dead in total depending on who you believe. And that one was apparently done in the name of a God, just not the one you were thinking of...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

 

[CosCos]

Right, cuz islamophobia is the real issue here. Never mind the bombings, be-headings, shootings, stabbings, mowings over etc. that are done in the name of islam everyday. That's just business as usual.

Someone said something MEAN about muslims though? perish the thought, they're the real victims here. No apologism here, no sir.

 

[A'isha]

Right, cuz islamophobia is the real issue here. Never mind the bombings, be-headings, shootings, stabbings, mowings over etc. that are done in the name of islam everyday. That's just business as usual.

Someone said something MEAN about muslims though? perish the thought, they're the real victims here. No apologism here, no sir.

We don't deny that those things are done by followers of Islam. We merely point out that those things are also done by followers of other religions, too.

You, on the other hand, seem to deny that those things are done by followers of other religions too. And yet you call us "apologists"!

 

[CosCos]

Why in the name of mohammed are you comparing islamic killings with EVERYTHING else under the sun?

The point was " violence, terrorism, and killings carried out in the name of pretty much every religion, not just Islam."

Unless US Police is a religion now?

 

[CosCos]

Right you can't deny them because to do so would make you look insane. The fact is that they're happening everywhere all the time. So you give a cursory acknowledgement then move on to decry the REAL crime here which is people blaming islam.

And yes, I do deny that these things are done by followers of other religions too, because it's NOT happening. It's happened in the past, you might have a couple of isolated incidents here and there now. But to compare with the scale of of what is being carried out in the name of islam is simply delusional. The best someone could come up with are the US police and the war in syria.