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Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

So basically if one does not endlessly spend a significant portion of their life denouncing actions taken by people who share some things in common with them, they are presumed guilty of whatever offenses those with said similar traits are often presumed to have committed?

Do we really take this seriously and perhaps more importantly, apply it consistently?
 
So basically if one does not endlessly spend a significant portion of their life denouncing actions taken by people who share some things in common with them, they are presumed guilty of whatever offenses those with said similar traits are often presumed to have committed?

Do we really take this seriously and perhaps more importantly, apply it consistently?

I think the amount of denunciation society expects from the implicated group is probably proportional to the enormity of the crimes being committed by some members of that group.

For example, Donald Trump should spend as much time as it takes to personally and publicly denounce every statement issued by anyone who commits hate speech and may have voted for him.

On the other hand, Muslims really don't need to say much at all about Islamic terrorists engaging in mass murder on the regular.
 
I think the amount of denunciation society expects from the implicated group is probably proportional to the enormity of the crimes being committed by some members of that group.

For example, Donald Trump should spend as much time as it takes to personally and publicly denounce every statement issued by anyone who commits hate speech and may have voted for him.

On the other hand, Muslims really don't need to say much at all about Islamic terrorists engaging in mass murder on the regular.
"Implicated" group? Those Muslims who are in fact implicated should say plenty about their involvement.

But Muslims as such are not implicated by reason of their being Muslims. My next door neighbours probably have nothing they require to say, because they are not implicated in the crime. Trump is implicated only where, or if, he has himself said hateful things to solicit the votes of deplorables. If he hasn't done that, he doesn't need to say anything about what the deplorables may take it into their heads to say.
 
"Implicated" group? Those Muslims who are in fact implicated should say plenty about their involvement.

But Muslims as such are not implicated by reason of their being Muslims. My next door neighbours probably have nothing they require to say, because they are not implicated in the crime. Trump is implicated only where, or if, he has himself said hateful things to solicit the votes of deplorables. If he hasn't done that, he doesn't need to say anything about what the deplorables may take it into their heads to say.

Perhaps it wasn't the best word to use, but I figured it would be clear enough from the context that I wasn't talking about criminal implications. I'm sorry you were so confused by the term that you were unable to contribute anything relevant to the discussion. I was talking more about the kinds of concerns people understandably have about a group, when members of that group are doing concerning things.
 
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Perhaps it wasn't the best word to use, but I figured it would be clear enough from the context that I wasn't talking about criminal implications. I'm sorry you were so confused by the term that you were unable to contribute anything relevant to the discussion. I was talking more about the kinds of concerns people understandably have about a group, when members of that group are doing concerning things.

Define your groups better then.

Amazing that people think this kind of bigotry is justified or justifiable.
 
When people set impossible targets for things its not evidence of their willingness to change their view its evidence of their dishonesty.

I don't decree what the targets are, I make an estimate where the targets should be based on the responses we see to them (e.g. by voting for clearly bad choices who promise to do something about it). I don't claim any significant accuracy, it could be a hundred million Muslims would do enough in a single event, or it could be even half a billion wouldn't do the trick if it were a one-time event. What I can say that in a one off event rejecting Islamic extremists 30,000 Muslims is a joke and that 300,000,000 would be truly impressive and would have a significant impact on the extremists on both sides, even if it were just a one time event. It could be enough, it could still be too little too late, but it would have a notable positive impact on the issue.

You still haven't come up with any counter-proposal as to what could be done. Am I right to assume this is because you don't have any alternative either, but simply refuse to request any valuable contribution if it has to come from a certain religious group?

Why would anyone Muslim or otherwise listen to such nonsense?

No reason, other than wanting the terrorists to lose.

That is my only motivation. The only embarrassing nonsense is that you keep on ranting about collective guilt and other stuff I not only never said, but actually explicitly denounced. Muslims should simply admit that even though it could be considered unfair, they should still go out and denounce the extremists often, in numbers and loudly. It would weaken the extremists' hold on the narrative and their attacks would no longer have the desired effect by driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims. If non-extremist Muslims manage to take a hold of narrative even a far worse terror campaign really won't make a dent in the perception. If they began witch such a campaign 15 years ago the terrorists could be defeated by now, using relatively moderate effort. By now this would require a truly herculean effort, because they let it slide for far too long.

Again, you could say it's unfair to ask this of Muslims, and you wouldn't be utterly wrong - just utterly irrelevant. If you want to see fair go watch a game of American football. Then come back when you've filled your quota of fairness and divulge in what matters. Defeating the terrorists matters, and claiming something shouldn't be considered because it's 'unfair' to ask of Muslims to contribute in a way they aren't legally obliged to contribute (but are entirely able to) is nonsense, pure and simple.

What is so hard to grasp about Muslims combating extremism in this way anyway? Is it fair that the European and American taxpayers must pay for European and American servicemen to risk their lives in fighting what is an essentially problem of Muslims, created by Islam, that is threatening mainly Muslims? I don't see you campaigning against that, and I really don't see many Muslims or anyone else objecting the fight against ISIS because it is unfair to US, French, Germany, British and other taxpayers and servicemen and their families either. What I ask of Muslims is a fraction of that cost, and that minuscule fraction would actually be immensely more effective, and on top of it all it would improve their lot too. The payout to the regular Muslim could well be positive, unlike the fight against ISIS that doesn't directly benefit a western taxpayer in any way. Yet, it is considered unfair to ask of Muslims to denounce the extremists sufficiently loudly and in sufficient numbers, but it is not considered unfair to ask a western taxpayer to foot the bill and moreover of the western serviceman to risk their lives and of the family members of the said servicemen to risk losing a loved one to fight the extremists.

Talk about double standards. Seesh!

McHrozni
 
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If you search the database for Orlando, for instance, you will find a whole lot of sourced condemnations of that single attack specifically (I stopped counting at 120, and hadn't reached the end of the list).

EDIT: I figured out that the search results display 30 to a page, and there are 17 pages of results for "2016 Orlando nightclub mass shooting", for a total of around 510 separate, sourced condemnations in the database for that single attack alone.

Yeh, figures. For one of the worst terrorist incidents in the West of the past 15 years, it's in the range of about 1% of where it should be for it to be anywhere near sufficient to combat extremists in a marginally useful way.

McHrozni
 
That's because what would be necessary would be a peace between Israel and its neighbours.

See, this is one thing that never made any sense whatsoever. France routinely votes against Israel in the UNSC, and is frequently targeted by Muslim extremists, who don't even mention Israel as a grievance. Can you please provide evidence that a peace with Israel would make a substantial difference? Gut feeling is not evidence.

Your assertion makes about as much sense as Northern Ireland peace process being responsible for the drop of terrorism in Brittany. They both follow the same religious denomination and are of the same ethnic background (Celts), so it's at least as good as your claim. This is silly on the surface and has no substance behind it.

But we'll soon see. The present Israeli administration is committed to annexations and settlements, and the only curb on the enthusiasm of its leaders has traditionally been the disapproval of its hegemon, the USA. But now the USA has a president who approves of these excesses, and has appointed an ambassador with similar predispositions.

Ironically enough, this could end up helping the peace process. But we risk derailing the thread with it - do you want to take this into the appropriate thread? Answer there and link it to here if you do :)

McHrozni
 
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I don't decree what the targets are, I make an estimate where the targets should be based on the responses we see to them (e.g. by voting for clearly bad choices who promise to do something about it). I don't claim any significant accuracy, it could be a hundred million Muslims would do enough in a single event, or it could be even half a billion wouldn't do the trick if it were a one-time event. What I can say that in a one off event rejecting Islamic extremists 30,000 Muslims is a joke and that 300,000,000 would be truly impressive and would have a significant impact on the extremists on both sides, even if it were just a one time event. It could be enough, it could still be too little too late, but it would have a notable positive impact on the issue.

You still haven't come up with any counter-proposal as to what could be done. Am I right to assume this is because you don't have any alternative either, but simply refuse to request any valuable contribution if it has to come from a certain religious group?



No reason, other than wanting the terrorists to lose.

That is my only motivation. The only embarrassing nonsense is that you keep on ranting about collective guilt and other stuff I not only never said, but actually explicitly denounced. Muslims should simply admit that even though it could be considered unfair, they should still go out and denounce the extremists often, in numbers and loudly. It would weaken the extremists' hold on the narrative and their attacks would no longer have the desired effect by driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims. If non-extremist Muslims manage to take a hold of narrative even a far worse terror campaign really won't make a dent in the perception. If they began witch such a campaign 15 years ago the terrorists could be defeated by now, using relatively moderate effort. By now this would require a truly herculean effort, because they let it slide for far too long.

Again, you could say it's unfair to ask this of Muslims, and you wouldn't be utterly wrong - just utterly irrelevant. If you want to see fair go watch a game of American football. Then come back when you've filled your quota of fairness and divulge in what matters. Defeating the terrorists matters, and claiming something shouldn't be considered because it's 'unfair' to ask of Muslims to contribute in a way they aren't legally obliged to contribute (but are entirely able to) is nonsense, pure and simple.

What is so hard to grasp about Muslims combating extremism in this way anyway? Is it fair that the European and American taxpayers must pay for European and American servicemen to risk their lives in fighting what is an essentially problem of Muslims, created by Islam, that is threatening mainly Muslims? I don't see you campaigning against that, and I really don't see many Muslims or anyone else objecting the fight against ISIS because it is unfair to US, French, Germany, British and other taxpayers and servicemen and their families either. What I ask of Muslims is a fraction of that cost, and that minuscule fraction would actually be immensely more effective, and on top of it all it would improve their lot too. The payout to the regular Muslim could well be positive, unlike the fight against ISIS that doesn't directly benefit a western taxpayer in any way. Yet, it is considered unfair to ask of Muslims to denounce the extremists sufficiently loudly and in sufficient numbers, but it is not considered unfair to ask a western taxpayer to foot the bill and moreover of the western serviceman to risk their lives and of the family members of the said servicemen to risk losing a loved one to fight the extremists.

Don't hide behind the uniforms of military personnel, that's shameful.

Powerful interests CHOOSE to send our military off on foreign adventures, so that's not remotely the same thing. Both the service personnel and local population are victims of these expeditions. The horrors visited on them are a big part of what produces terrorism, actually. One could make a claim of collective guilt by way of being citizens of a country that engages in imperialism just as easily as concluding collective guilt because of shared religion. In both instances it could be argued that 'silence is consent.' Chances are, in many cases, you'll hear something along the lines of 'they don't represent Islam at all.'

Must every Christian apologize for Westboro? Should gay people apologize for Dahmer?

Boo-hoo, we have to foot the bill in dollars. They pay in blood and lives, way to make a false equivalence, there.

Talk about double standards. Seesh!

McHrozni

How many times a day on average do you, unsolicited, apologize to foreigners of countries we've invaded or operated in for the cruise missiles, drone strikes, and hiring of former warlords as death squads?

Just want to make sure you're doing your part to end terrorism and avoid imposing double standards.
 
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Perhaps it wasn't the best word to use, but I figured it would be clear enough from the context that I wasn't talking about criminal implications. I'm sorry you were so confused by the term that you were unable to contribute anything relevant to the discussion. I was talking more about the kinds of concerns people understandably have about a group, when members of that group are doing concerning things.
If the word "implications" in the discussion of a horrible crime doesn't mean criminal implications, then what - specifically - are "the kinds of concerns people understandably have about a group, when members of that group are doing concerning things" when these "concerning things" are mentioned in a thread about mass murder of civilians doing Christmas shopping?
 
Ironically enough, this could end up helping the peace process. But we risk derailing the thread with it - do you want to take this into the appropriate thread? Answer there and link it to here if you do :)

McHrozni
If you think Trump's enthusiasm for illegal settlements and annexations is "helping the peace process", I agree that would be ironic, if not very paradoxical. If you wish to substantiate that statement in a forum you consider appropriate, please post your argument there, and link to it.
 
Must every Christian apologize for Westboro? Should gay people apologize for Dahmer?

Boo-hoo, we have to foot the bill in dollars. They pay in blood and lives, way to make a false equivalence, there.

You know, it would be great if you could demonstrate you are able to comprehend my proposal and the reasoning behind it. The way I see it you only responded in a certain programmed way to an argument you wish to see, but not to the argument that was made.

It's usually called a straw man argument, and never a good sign of actually having a point. Address the argument that was made, not one you think you are able to argue against. If that's too hard then maybe you should consider the merits of my argument. If you're unable to make a case against my argument (as opposed to an argument I didn't make) then it is rather likely I'm right and you're wrong.

For example, you claimed that demonstrating against extremists is "paying in blood and lives". :boggled: This is one of the most nonsensical arguments I've seen so far :rolleyes: it would be quite right to call it David Icke level nonsensical.

McHrozni
 
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If you think Trump's enthusiasm for illegal settlements and annexations is "helping the peace process", I agree that would be ironic, if not very paradoxical. If you wish to substantiate that statement in a forum you consider appropriate, please post your argument there, and link to it.

I'll take this as a no, you don't wish to talk about that. Fine by me.

What I wonder is why are you still unable to answer my challenges?
Is it because you have no arguments perhaps? I assert this is the reason. Prove me wrong.

McHrozni
 
You still haven't come up with any counter-proposal as to what could be done.

Done about what? Your (and others like you) bigotry towards Muslims? Apparently nothing.

If what you say about Islamist terrorists is correct - that they cannot be reasoned with and that there is no end game - then its entirely possible that nothing can be done to stop it. In the meantime that doesn't justify your hobby of pointing the finger at Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism because it makes you feel better.

Inventing ludicrously embarrassing targets for when you are going to decide they are doing enough is just cringeworthy though.

Mind you, you've challenged it in the ludicrous stakes with your paragraph on military action.
 
For example, you claimed that demonstrating against extremists is "paying in blood and lives". :boggled: This is one of the most nonsensical arguments I've seen so far :rolleyes: it would be quite right to call it David Icke level nonsensical.

McHrozni

No he didn't. For someone who sees strawmen everywhere you do a hell of a good job of creating them.
 
I'll take this as a no, you don't wish to talk about that. Fine by me.

What I wonder is why are you still unable to answer my challenges?
Is it because you have no arguments perhaps? I assert this is the reason. Prove me wrong.

McHrozni
Of course it's not a No. You have made a paradoxical statement. Well, substantiate it. You don't want to do that here? OK, do it where you think best, and tell me where that is.
 
Done about what? Your (and others like you) bigotry towards Muslims? Apparently nothing.

Please explain why my argument is bigoted. Cite passages from it and explain which parts are bigoted and why. Then make a counter-proposal that is better than mine and comparably effective.

If what you say about Islamist terrorists is correct - that they cannot be reasoned with and that there is no end game - then its entirely possible that nothing can be done to stop it.

Please explain why my proposal wouldn't help. I explained why it would, now you make a case why it wouldn't. Gut feeling isn't a case, and neither are dismissals out of hand. Good luck.

McHrozni
 

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