Proof of Immortality, the IV league

[MRC_Hans]

Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

Exactly why do you think that?

Hans

 

[Hokulele]

Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

Once more with feeling: The self is not a thing.

 

[John Jones]

Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

You wouldn't be trying to put words in his mouth, would you?

 

[Loss Leader]

Once more with feeling: The self is not a thing.

And to quote "Once More With Feeling":

I've been making shows of trading blows
Just hoping no one knows
That I'm just going through the motions​

 

[Sideroxylon]

Exactly why do you think that?

Hans

Fishing for graspable straws. No reasoned thought required.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

Jabba how in the name of the Dunder-Mifflin paper company are any of us supposed to have any clue how the term we have no idea how you are using ("self") and the term you've completely made up ("OOFLam") are supposed to interact?

Jabba I have no more idea if a reproduced self as you use the term would prove the meaningless nonsense that is OOFLam wrong any more then I know if a Jabberwocky and a Wendigo would be able to have viable offspring.

 

[Dancing David]

...or oxygen deprivation during NDEs ... but the true believers will find there new evidence for their arbitrary "souls" to be eternal. What an immorality!

You can also get to the 'the cave' or the 'tunnel of light' by pressing on your eyeballs with the lids closed.

I can open gates to other dimensions!

 

[Dancing David]

Jabba.

Take a match and light it. You now have a fire. Take the first match and light a second match. You now have two fires. Blow out one of the matches. You now have one fire.

Did any part of that not make sense? Did you just have a crisis of faith over which one is the original fire and if the second fire became the first fire or if the matches had some special magical fire that was in them just waiting to be let out or where the first fire went when you blew it out?

No? Okay then.

The buddhist conundrum, which many people bend out of shape, usually when they talk about the room that the lamp is re-lit in.

It is Proof of Mind!

 

[Dancing David]

I am fond of that analogy though.

The flame is a process.
Once the fuel runs out, the flame dies.
The flame is in all likelihood unique in its particular configuration.

That is remarkable, what is the chance that a single flame would exist?

And that it implies the Eternal Flame!

 

[aleCcowaN]

You can also get to the 'the cave' or the 'tunnel of light' by pressing on your eyeballs with the lids closed.

I can open gates to other dimensions!

I used to do that when I was a child, and I only managed to get the pointillistic geometrical patterns, mostly in green and red that were depicted 20 to 50 thousand years ago in ancient caves (a fact I learnt like 35 years later).

 

[Loss Leader]

I used to do that when I was a child, and I only managed to get the pointillistic geometrical patterns, mostly in green and red that were depicted 20 to 50 thousand years ago in ancient caves (a fact I learnt like 35 years later).

I'm getting odd patterns of light. I remember dancing geometric patterns in color when I was a child. Now I'm worried about that.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I'm getting odd patterns of light. I remember dancing geometric patterns in color when I was a child. Now I'm worried about that.

Me too ... I suspect I may have IOP higher than normal, and as I am in a cavalcade towards type II diabetes it wouldn't surprise me if I have some metabolic problems at retinal level.

I also remember I suffered severe orthostatic hypotension as a pre-teen and I saw all tinted in orange when I stood up quickly. I came to know later that as a typical description of how an abduction by UFOs start (Why should I be so rational at a tender age? I lost the opportunity of a life of permanent dopey awe)

 

[The Sparrow]

It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.

 

[marplots]

It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.

Naw, it comes with being immortal. You have plenty of time for everything so there's no rush. Back when I was immortal I was the same way.

 

[aleCcowaN]

It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.

Probably. There is nobody left whom he's talking to who don't pose challenging questions back.

The fringe reset may be blog posts in the usual venues telling a distorted story of the debate here and how he's rightfully winning it.

Anything if that avoids further contamination and forum level going to the dogs.

At least that Bayesian nonsense has died.

 

[The Sparrow]

Naw, it comes with being immortal. You have plenty of time for everything so there's no rush. Back when I was immortal I was the same way.

What was it like? Were you bored? I'd figure after the 10 billionth pizza, I would have had enough of life.

 

[marplots]

What was it like? Were you bored? I'd figure after the 10 billionth pizza, I would have had enough of life.

I don't know how it might have been, my immortality only lasted through my 20's. But it was great while it did.

 

[The Sparrow]

I don't know how it might have been, my immortality only lasted through my 20's. But it was great while it did.

Perhaps Jabba can help. Being immortal I'm sure he has memories of his zillion past lives and thus can speak to what it is like living forever.

Unless of course he has no memories of past lives, or in fact anything before he was age 5, in which case, being immortal would feel and be exactly like this is the only life you've ever had or will have.

 

[Jabba]

Dave and Sparrow,
- I see this as equivalent to the Mt Rainier and the Texas Sharpshooter arguments. Do you agree?
- If so, I agree that this issue deserves more consideration. And, for now at least, I also think that it is the weakest part of my argument.

Yes.

Dave,

- Good.
- Sorry this is taking so long, but for me, the issue/reasoning is very complicated and difficult to put together (though, I feel 99% sure I'm right).

- How is my sense of a particular and continuous self different from Mt Rainier, a bucket of sand thrown on a floor and random bullet holes on the side of a barn -- when it comes to the likelihood of my current existence -- given modern science vs the likelihood of Mt Rainier, etc, given modern science? (Sorry about that.)
- Apparently, a personal sense of continuous self is an intrinsic/inherent aspect of (the emergent property of) consciousness, and it cannot be reproduced -- when there is no aspect of the other situations that cannot be reproduced.

- That is a way that it's different -- but, does that difference make my sense of self a legitimate "E" in the Bayes formula for P(H|E), when the existence of Mt Rainier is not? I'll be back.

Dave,
- My best guess, so far, as to why the current existence of MPSoCS (my particular sense of continuous self) makes for a legitimate Bayesian target, when other extremely unlikely 'events' (such as Mt Rainier) do not, is that in order to make for such a target, it needs to be set apart from other selves in a critical way (like the 2nd cousin of the controller of the lottery in regard to winning the lottery).
- And, at least in a sense, it is -- in that the other selves are only apparent -- mine is for sure. (Keep in mind that I accept that MPSoCS may be only a process or illusion -- just that, in such a sense, it is real.)
- Anyway, so far, I think that is the critical factor -- even though, I fully expect that your MPSoCS is also set apart...
- Confusing, but...

- Clearly, we have spent a goodly amount of time dealing with this issue -- so, much of what I have to say I have said already. Hopefully, I can add something more convincing, or just say what I've already said more convincingly.

- My sense of self, even if just a process or illusion, is still the only 'thing' that I know exists.
- And, if it didn't exist, there might as well be nothing -- it would be as if there were nothing – because, this self is the only observer I have.
- And, if my self never exists, there might as well never be anything...
- See what I mean?
- Probably not. But, I’ll keep tryin.

- And then, as there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit as to the number of selves possible. I was, in that sense, brand new -- created out of nothing (an inherent part of an emergent property)-- and the likelihood of my self currently existing -- given OOFLam -- is only 7 billion over infinity.
- My existence under OOFLam would be an ENORMOUS coincident. I would be DAMNED lucky! And, I’m the only one I have!

As far as everyone else, including the copy of Dave, was concerned, yes, because the duplicate self would be identical in every respect to the original...

Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

No. Because two is more than one.

- I've been sick...

- But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong.

 

[godless dave]

I didn't say producing a copy of myself would result in reincarnation. I said it would feel like reincarnation to the copy, because the copy would be identical to the original. It would look like reincarnation to everyone but the original, because the copy would be identical to the original.

Even the original could never be sure that he was the original, just as I cannot be sure I was not replaced by a copy with my memories sometime last night, or even within the last 15 seconds. I can be pretty confident that didn't happen because the technology to do such a thing doesn't exist, but if it did, I would not be able to tell if I were the original or a copy.

Regardless, an identical copy is a separate object from the original. If you have two identical quarters in your pocket, do you have 25 cents or 50 cents?