Utopia and Time Travel

[Navigator]

As to the OP, it may be that future folks have already sculpted our present with Utopia in mind. It's just that for them to enjoy Utopia, our era has to suck.

Actually, that applies to NOW. Some folk NOW enjoy individual utopias. It's just that for them to have that, most everyone else has to go without.

So the people of the future all enjoy utopia because of this.

The people of the future are the descendants from many of those who NOW enjoy utopias. The people who NOW go without, do not have descendants.

 

[William Parcher]

If you were to use the Washington Monument as a sundial you would be relying on the fact that it is moving (in a very regular fashion) with respect to the sun.

Unless you want to say that the Washington Monument isn't moving and the sun is revolving around the earth? In which case you'd be using it to measure the movement of the sun*.

*That's a rather odd perspective to take.

The monument can serve as a sundial if it doesn't move. You would set up a radiating index around it like sundials typically have.

But you are going to have a problem if the monument moves like a reed swaying in the winds, or moves around like a live giraffe.

 

[arthwollipot]

Nicely said.

So width exists as an object. What object does time represent, in order that we can show it exists?

Nope, width exists as a property.

That. Width is a property. Yes, it is a property of objects (all real objects have it) but it doesn't have to be. Time is a property of objects too (all real objects exist for a specific period in time) but it doesn't have to be.

At any given time, one can determine either the velocity or the position of an object, but not both.

Technically, you can, but the precision with which you measure one is inversely proportional to the precision with which you can measure the other. You can measure both moderately imprecisely if you want, or you can measure one precisely and the other very imprecisely.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

The trick here is to have a realistic plan. A path that only ends with one result ( in this case, a future time traveler gets my message and complies ).

Yes, that's the trick, all right. Wouldn't it just be easier to develop a realistic plan which results in you living forever and making a Utopia all by your present self? How about a realistic plan which makes you world dictator so you can get everybody to build Utopia for you?

Also, aside from thinking about it... taking actual actions plays a huge part has well. Its not going to be just enough to think it up. The work is minor tho.

Really? Minor? Like, how minor? Just exactly what is required? Details, please.

Last, messages can ( and are carried out in many ways ). It is a fact... that NASA has sent messages out into space via laser beam ( and possibly received a response ). Books written in stone! Really, there are a million ways to send a message.

Yes, and most of them fail. In the long run, everything fails. Why should you be any different?

And, of course, there is always the possibility that somebody else didn't like your Utopia, so he sent a message to his future self to come back in time and kill you tomorrow, before you worked out the minor details. (Pay attention to the tenses.)

 

[Steve001]

Wrong.

Change requires movement.

Everything in this universe MOVES.

Wrong. Time only requires change. For example, a hot cup of coffee cools, but does not move that's a change

 

[Steve001]

"Sundial" springs to mind. Movement of the shadow of the stone in relation to movement of the sun = measure of time.

The earth is even a heavier stone, but because it moves, predictions involving time can accurately forecast eclipses



You are making out like movement is not related to change. They are different interpretations of the same process.

Movement in relation to change can be used to measure time - like in 'how old is this fossil?'.

Your reasoning is leading you astray. Movement is change and change can be measured by movement, but the former is not required for time to pass. Only change is required.

 

[Steve001]

I don't. How can time be measured without movement? How can there be movement without space in which to move? Time and movement are the same it would seem.

How can there be movement/time without things?

How can things exist without an observer? (without consciousness acknowledging their existence)?

You've created quite a house of mirrors for yourself. I do hope you find your way out.

 

[Steve001]

Nicely said.

So width exists as an object. What object does time represent, in order that we can show it exists?

All objects. All objects exhibit entropy, therefore change and change is a measure of time passing.

 

[Steve001]

Is the OP for real?

 

[alexi_drago]

True, but the time it takes them to do so is minuscule and way lower than the human threshold of perception.

Looking across larger distances the effect can be noticable and quite large, on the scale of the solar system an observer on one planet could even observe events occurring in a different order from what an observer on another planet would see. Every observer has their own unique now no matter how small or large the distances between them.

RushR1 brings up the scale of trillions of lightyears and travelling at lightspeed as well as the example of the mirror to suggest time travel is possible, but it's all very vague.

 

[casebro]

Time is that phenomenon that keeps everything from happening at once.

Don't mess with it, because if everything happens at once, it's all over.

 

[casebro]

As to the OP, it may be that future folks have already sculpted our present with Utopia in mind. It's just that for them to enjoy Utopia, our era has to suck.

or maybe this is the best it will ever be?

 

[beren]

Anyone else come in here hoping for a Doctor Who discussion?

 

[Navigator]

That. Width is a property. Yes, it is a property of objects (all real objects have it) but it doesn't have to be. Time is a property of objects too (all real objects exist for a specific period in time) but it doesn't have to be.

Thanks.

In relation to space - space being real, then time is a property of space?

 

[Navigator]

Change requires movement.

Everything in this universe MOVES.

Wrong. Time only requires change. For example, a hot cup of coffee cools, but does not move that's a change

The cup of coffee moves in the same way the stone monument moves.

But, placing that to the side for now, when something goes from hot to cold, can you name what it is that is moving in relation to that change?

Kinetic theory of matter: All matter is made up of atoms and molecules that are constantly moving. When heat is added to a substance, the molecules and atoms vibrate faster. As atoms vibrate faster, the space between atoms increases. ... They contract when they lose their heat.

iow - movement is happening in relation to change. We cannot separate change from movement and call that a good argument.

Same for this argument:

Your reasoning is leading you astray. Movement is change and change can be measured by movement, but the former is not required for time to pass. Only change is required.

 

[Navigator]

What object does time represent, in order that we can show it exists?

All objects. All objects exhibit entropy, therefore change and change is a measure of time passing.

And change and movement are the same process.

Time represents the property of movement/change (movement IS change) and as such, would not exist without objects.

You've created quite a house of mirrors for yourself. I do hope you find your way out.

Truly the universe is a kind of house of mirrors, but I didn't create it, I am experiencing it.

So are you and all of us.

Now, this signifies that 'we all' are observers and without us within this universe, without consciousness within this universe, this universe might as well not exist.

See?

In order for something to be said to exist or time to be said to be seen as a property of that which is seen to exist, consciousness has to exist.

The observer (consciousness) is required as the fundamental property to anything existing.

(just to bring it back to the thread topic)

If a consciousness from the future were able to somehow go back to our present and enter a form in which it could then use to insert ideas into this present which would help change that future, then it may be possible for the reverse to be done too.


In order for this to be done, time would somehow have to be moved out of and back into, and if time is the property of this universe, then that would mean having to somehow leave this universe at this present point and enter it again at the future point and visa versa.

Therefore, in order to be able to do this, there would have to be another 'place' outside of this universe for the consciousness to go.

 

[Navigator]

Looking across larger distances the effect can be noticable and quite large, on the scale of the solar system an observer on one planet could even observe events occurring in a different order from what an observer on another planet would see. Every observer has their own unique now no matter how small or large the distances between them.

Can you explain this in more detail please.


Thanks.

 

[Navigator]

Time is that phenomenon that keeps everything from happening at once.

Don't mess with it, because if everything happens at once, it's all over.

That's funny *chuckles* but time is a property of everything at once, and the universe is everything happening at once, but not at the same moment...at least not from our perspective within it.

 

[William Parcher]

The observer (consciousness) is required as the fundamental property to anything existing.

Are you saying that the earth didn't even exist at all prior to the first appearance of a conscious organism?

 

[alfaniner]

As to the OP, it may be that future folks have already sculpted our present with Utopia in mind. It's just that for them to enjoy Utopia, our era has to suck.

So, we're the few eggs that have to be broken. And the future is an omelette.