JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Why? Does it seem unbelievable to you that they would show incorrect diagrams of the bullet entering the neck and descending downwards? Well, that's the world we live in.

If you actually went to Dallas, the next step is to get out to a firing range which rents weapons, and take some lessons, and get some trigger-time with a bolt action rifle.

You will learn that every bullet has a life of its own, and each bullet will do its own thing upon striking a fleshy or soft target. Talk to other shooters, especially ones with combat or police experience, and LISTEN to their crazy bullet stories. You will here about .556 rounds being deflected by leaves in Vietnam, you will hear about bullets flying far beyond their range, and ricochets wounding multiple people.

A personal friend was wounded in Vietnam by an NVA AK-47, .762 round which entered between his middle, and fourth finger, and traveled up his arm, through his bicep, and lodged in his shoulder. In turn, his 3-round burst struck the NVA soldier in the face tearing off the top if his head above the lower jaw.

Bullets are like bears; just when you're certain something is impossible for them to do - one goes out and does it.
 
Just peeking my head in to say something quick until later.

Today I went to Dallas and saw the Sixth floor museum, the grassy knoll, etc.

I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.

How fast did you walk from Oswald's roominghouse to Tenth and Patton?

Back in the early 1990's, I did it in 11:15 at a fast walking pace.

What was your time?

Hank
 
Or selling some conspiracy literature. Groden used to set up a table in Dealey Plaza. Don't know if he's still doing that.

Hank

I saw Groden there, at a little table on the pergola. I was a little disappointed that he was presenting a fake (photoshopped?) photograph of a gaping wound in the back of Kennedy's head alongside the genuine official autopsy photos, which may confuse the average newcomer. I said hi, shook his hand, and said thanks for leaking the autopsy photos.

I did not do the Oswald roominghouse- 10th & Patton walk.
 
If you actually went to Dallas, the next step is to get out to a firing range which rents weapons, and take some lessons, and get some trigger-time with a bolt action rifle.

You will learn that every bullet has a life of its own, and each bullet will do its own thing upon striking a fleshy or soft target. Talk to other shooters, especially ones with combat or police experience, and LISTEN to their crazy bullet stories. You will here about .556 rounds being deflected by leaves in Vietnam, you will hear about bullets flying far beyond their range, and ricochets wounding multiple people.

A personal friend was wounded in Vietnam by an NVA AK-47, .762 round which entered between his middle, and fourth finger, and traveled up his arm, through his bicep, and lodged in his shoulder. In turn, his 3-round burst struck the NVA soldier in the face tearing off the top if his head above the lower jaw.

Bullets are like bears; just when you're certain something is impossible for them to do - one goes out and does it.

How on earth does this relate to JFK?
 
Why should a museum be expected to give any sort of nod much less credence to the fertile imaginings of the ill informed?

Regnad Kcin, are you aware that the official story, for people who know that the autopsy photo shows the back wound at T1, is that the bullet traveled slightly upwards through the body as Kennedy was hunched over to some degree? What do you think newcomers will think of that when they remember the Sixth Floor Museum tried to teach them the bullet entered the neck and descended?
 
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Why? Does it seem unbelievable to you that they would show incorrect diagrams of the bullet entering the neck and descending downwards? Well, that's the world we live in.

And there you have it. When asked for evidence, you instead appeal to the bare possibility of your claim.

Well, here goes: does it seem unbelievable to you that LHO could have killed the president on his own? Nope, entirely possible, ergo true. Check mate.
 
Here are more references to body being probed during the autopsy, with tools meant for the purpose, not just digital probing with fingers.

1. According to this 1967 CBS memo from Bob Richter, Dr. Humes was a personal friend of CBS producer Jim Snyder, and Humes claimed that he X-rayed a probe that ran from Kennedy's back wound to his throat wound.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=597

2. According to a 8/23/1977 HSCA interview report with photographer Dr. Robert F. Karnei, Karnei recalled seeing the body being probed and the probing being photographed. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=325#relPageId=5&tab=page

3. A 8/29/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins says Mr. Jenkins said he believes Dr. Humes attempted to probe the back wound. He said he didn't believe the doctor found that the probe "...penetrated into the chest."

Jenkins was also interviewed by David Lifton: "I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an indentation... where it was pushing the skin up... There was no entry into the chest cavity... it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity... somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from the heart] or the bronchus in the lungs."

4. In the 8/11/1978 deposition of photographer Robert L. Knudsen, Knudsen spoke extensively about recalling seeing at least two photographs of probes in Kennedy's body. The descriptions by Knudsen are somewhat confusing, but the point is obvious.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=666#relPageId=23&tab=page

5. In the 7/16/1966 ARRB testimony of autopsy photographer John Stringer, he recalled a probe being inserted into the back wound and throat wound, both of which did not exit. He did not recall taking photographs of this.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=17&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&relPageId=36&search=probe
 
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Here are more references to body being probed during the autopsy, with tools meant for the purpose, not just digital probing with fingers.

1. According to this 1967 CBS memo from Bob Richter, Dr. Humes was a personal friend of CBS producer Jim Snyder, and Humes claimed that he X-rayed a probe that ran from Kennedy's back wound to his throat wound.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=597

So a *hearsay* reference twice removed (Richter from supposedly Snyder from supposedly Humes) four years after the fact? Not convincing.


2. According to a 8/23/1977 HSCA interview report with photographer Dr. Robert F. Karnei, Karnei recalled seeing the body being probed and the probing being photographed. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=325#relPageId=5&tab=page

3. A 8/29/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins says Mr. Jenkins said he believes Dr. Humes attempted to probe the back wound. He said he didn't believe the doctor found that the probe "...penetrated into the chest."

Jenkins was also interviewed by David Lifton: "I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an indentation... where it was pushing the skin up... There was no entry into the chest cavity... it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity... somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from the heart] or the bronchus in the lungs."

4. In the 8/11/1978 deposition of photographer Robert L. Knudsen, Knudsen spoke extensively about recalling seeing at least two photographs of probes in Kennedy's body. The descriptions by Knudsen are somewhat confusing, but the point is obvious.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=666#relPageId=23&tab=page

So four different witnesses gave statements of their *recollections* fourteen years after the fact that don't agree with each other, and you think that's somehow significant evidence that confirms your beliefs? It's not. It shows that eyewitness testimony - especially eyewitness testimony years or decades after the fact - is extremely unreliable.

As Professor John McAdams noted here,
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/memory.htm
(and as I pointed out to you previously):

The contradictions that litter the testimony caused Dr. Jeremy Gunn, Executive Director and General Counsel of the ARRB to conclude the following in a speech at Stanford:
The last thing I wanted to mention, just in terms of how we understand the evidence and how we deal with what we have is what I will call is the profound underscore profound unreliability of eyewitness testimony. You just cannot believe it. And I can tell you something else that is even worse than eyewitness testimony and that is 35 year old eyewitness testimony.
I have taken the depositions of several people who were involved in phases of the Kennedy assassination, all the doctors who performed the autopsy of President Kennedy and people who witnessed various things and they are profoundly unreliable.

Likewise, the Final Report of the ARRB stressed the problems with witness testimony:
The deposition transcripts and other medical evidence that were released by the Review Board should be evaluated cautiously by the public. Often the witnesses contradict not only each other, but sometimes themselves. For events that transpired almost 35 years ago, all persons are likely to have failures of memory. It would be more prudent to weigh all of the evidence, with due concern for human error, rather than take single statements as "proof" for one theory or another.

What part of 'profoundly unreliable' did you not understand previously?



5. In the 7/16/1966 ARRB testimony of autopsy photographer John Stringer, he recalled a probe being inserted into the back wound and throat wound, both of which did not exit. He did not recall taking photographs of this.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=17&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&relPageId=36&search=probe

You mean 1996, not 1966, don't you? That's another three decades we need to add to your supposed date before Stringer made those recollections. I'll presume your subtracting 30 years from the recollection was an inadvertent typo, not an attempt to deceive.

Also, when some of the witnesses talk of a probe in the back going through to the throat, while others talk of a probe inserted in the throat but not going anywhere, while another talks of seeing photos of these probes, while another insists no photos were taken, how does this confirm in any fashion your belief that a fragment from the EOP wound in the back of JFK's head was what caused the throat wound?

Doesn't that make at least some of the witnesses simply wrong, per your view of the assassination? They can all be wrong, or some of them can be wrong, but they can't all be right. Yet you just dish them all up in one serving as if they are all equally good.

They aren't. They cannot be.

Aren't you once more just picking and choosing the good bits you like?

Hank
 
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Lol. HSienzant, do you think a probe was used at all during the autopsy? If so, why were Humes et. al so reluctant to talk about it?
 
Lol. HSienzant, do you think a probe was used at all during the autopsy? If so, why were Humes et. al so reluctant to talk about it?

lol. MicahJava, do you think recollections from 20,30,40 years after the event have any value? Especially when they contradict each other in many of the essential points?
 
lol. MicahJava, do you think recollections from 20,30,40 years after the event have any value? Especially when they contradict each other in many of the essential points?

I think it very well may be possible that all recollections are correct, all of the wounds were probed in different ways and the witnesses saw different parts of this procedure happening. Surely you're not saying that no probe was involved at all? Even Finck got around to admitting that to the ARRB, but said he didn't remember how it was used.
 
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I think it very well may be possible that all recollections are correct, all of the wounds were probed in different ways and the witnesses saw different parts of this procedure happening. Surely you're not saying that no probe was involved at all? Even Finck got around to admitting that to the ARRB, but said he didn't remember how it was used.

It was pointed out to you by another poster that this 'it may well be possible' approach is a non-starter. Remember, it may well be possible that Oswald shot JFK alone and unaided. Surely you're not saying that Oswald couldn't have shot and killed JFK alone. All it would take was a decent rifle from a tall building and a relatively good shot.

And since all the evidence points to Oswald doing exactly that, the rest is just you pulling 33-year-after-the-fact recollections out of context to pretend they agree with each other. We know they are not all possibly true... for example, Knudsen recalls seeing photos of a probe in JFK, while John Stringer, the autopsy photographer, insists no such photos were taken at any time (and later in the same interview, Stringer disavows what he supposedly told Lifton more than two decades earlier. See here (numbered page 81): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=18&tab=page ).

So, on that basis alone, one of these two men is certainly having a failure of memory. Pretending all these recollections are equally true is a pretense only, as they contradict each other. Some say there was no probe, others say it was probed with a finger, others insist a metal rod was used, some say it was a metal rod inserted in the back wound and it went nowhere, another says it was inserted in the front, others say the probe went all the way through... you appear not to understand how memory can be affected by what one has read or heard, or even how the question is worded.

For example, shown a video of a car hitting a stop sign, two weeks later (only TWO WEEKS LATER) the witnesses were asked how fast the car was travelling when it hit the sign. Those who were asked a non-loaded question like "How fast was the car travelling when it struck the sign?" guessed a lower MPH than those who were asked a loaded question like "How fast was the car travelling when it smashed into the sign?" Changing the verb changed the estimate.

Now go back and review the loaded questions the witnesses were asked about a probe in the ARRB interviews.

Pretending they saw different parts of the autopsy - while none of them say they were going in and out of the autopsy room like they were on a carousel at a Disney exhibition - is equally pretense on your part. Face it, their recollections do contradict each other, and you cannot salvage them by imagining where they might all be true in some twilight-zone type scenario where each saw a different autopsy or a different part of the same autopsy.

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


Now compare how the Tippit witnesses got pertinent details wrong within hours of the shooting with your insistence that it's quite possible 14- or 33-years-after-the-fact, that all the HSCA and ARRB witnesses got everything perfectly right.

Your argument here is rightly judged an absurdity.

Trying to reconcile recollections from a decade or more after the fact isn't going to ever be the right approach. But that's the approach you're pushing here.

I trust you understand better why you're not making any traction here.

Hank
 
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That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound.
 
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That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound.

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?
 
Is it worth pointing out the difference between a decades old memory and a hallucination?

Or how many of those "hallucinating the same thing" contradict each other?

And how much of this stems from a failure to understand the autopsy reports rather than inaccuracies?
 
That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

False dichotomy. That's a logical fallacy by you. It's also a loaded question, like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" That's another no-no.

There are other possibilities other than the two you list.
(a) "all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing".
(b) "Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound".

I in fact listed a third, which you strenuously avoided listing for some reason.
(c) All witnesses recollections are fallible (as illustrated by the Tippit witnesses recollections from within hours of the shooting, and reinforced by the ARRB caution and the reminder by Jeremy Gunn) and you are judiciously selecting from the record merely the bits you like to build a scenario that isn't supported by an unbiased review of all the evidence.

I find that option (c) to be the most reasonable. You don't?

Please tell us how you eliminated possibility (c), and how you narrowed it down to just (a) and (b) above.

I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Hank
 
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