JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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I think Doug Horne's summary is the closest to the truth regarding the history of the autopsy "conclusions"...

Nah. Not even close.

Of your four points above (quoting Doug Horne), concerning the supposed FOUR changing autopsy conclusions, two are false.

1. 2 Hits from Behind before 11am on 11/22 as reported by Sibert & O'Neill. This is legit, and stems from the original autopsy conclusions prior to the revision from Humes talking to Perry and finding out about the throat wound. I previously pointed out there's an excellent exposition of the facts of the two different sets of autopsy conclusions (not four) in Lifton's book, BEST EVIDENCE.


2. 3 Hits from Behind by 11:45pm on 11/22/63. This is false, as it doesn't rely on any first day evidence whatsoever, but relies on recollections made in 1978 by Lipsey and in 1998 by Robinson. There is absolutely no evidence for a three hits from behind conclusion by 11:45 pm on 11/22/63.


3. 2 Hits from Behind (throat wound caused by a fragment of head shot) on 11/24. This is another falsehood by Horne, as it was a speculation of the Dallas doctors (specifically Dr. Perry) on 11/22/63, and the illustration accompanying this reference was even cited by you from a Boston Globe article of 11/23/63. It was Doctor Perry who made that speculation; it doesn't stem from the autopsy whatsoever, and it doesn't stem from 11/24/63 as Horne claims. The story accompanying the picture you cited even says "more complete details are not expected until the autopsy is performed..."; clearly, the story was written on 11/22/63 and published the next day.

The story also says: "The rather meager medical details attributed to Dr. Malcolm Perry, the attending surgeon, described the bullet as entering just below the Adam's Apple and leaving by the back of the head. Since that statement Friday afternoon, it is believed from determining the site of the firing that the bullet entered the back of the head first and came out just under the Adam's Apple." Clearly, this is a speculation of someone at the newspaper based on the speculation of Dr. Perry. But the key point is this is just monkey business by Doug Horne in attributing this to the autopsy.

The speculation about a connection between the head and anterior neck wounds came originally from Dr. Perry, and it's important to note those are the only two wounds the Parkland doctors were aware of on 11/22/63 - the large wound in the head, and the small wound in the throat. So Perry speculated one bullet could do all the damage, by entering the throat, hitting the spine, and deflecting up and out the large head wound. He was wrong about that.

Someone at the newspaper (unattributed, but most likely the author, Ian Menzies), understanding the shots came from above and behind, speculated Perry got the direction of the bullet travel backwards, and suggested the bullet entered the head and exited the throat. He's wrong too.

Here's the link to the complete story as published:
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/Globe11-23-63.jpg

Here's your post with the image from that article:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11585798&postcount=2156
Your post even references a speculation by another Parkland doctor (McClelland) in his 11/22/63 memorandum for the record that the throat wound was caused by a fragment. Given that, I fail to understand why you can't see through Horne's argument about this speculation stemming from the Bethesda autopsists' conclusions on 11/24/63, when it's clear it stemmed from the Parkland doctors' speculations on 11/22/63.


4. 2 Hits from Behind, throat wound caused by transit of bullet from back wound. This is the revised conclusion the autopsist reached after Humes spoke with Perry and learned of the throat bullet wound. This is the only revision the autopsists made, and it is admitted in the autopsy testimony of Dr. Humes.
 
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Also HSienzant, do you find it likely that at any point in time during the autopsy, a metal probe was shoved from Kennedy's back wound to his throat wound?

Sorry, but I recently learned, that the autopsy doctors were not allowed to examine the bullet channel.
 
HSienzant, the concept of the throat wound as an exit for a head shot is not just based on a reversal of the initial speculation that a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. The diagram in the Boston Globe article CLEARLY depicts a bullet entering in the exact area of the head noted in the autopsy. Nobody at Parkland remembered that small head wound. Therefore, this is most likely information leaked to the media directly from the autopsy. You'd have to believe in a pretty big coincidence otherwise.

Lipsey clearly remembered this scenario being discussed at the autopsy, and remembered a metal probe being pushed through low in the back of the head and it coming out of the throat.

Robinson, corroborating Lipsey, also suggested (in 1977) that this scenario was discussed at the autopsy. He also remembered a probe being stuck in the base of the head. In 1998, he doubled down on his recollection and added that he remembered seeing the probe that entered the base of the head come out of the throat.

Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission casually mentioned that the autopsy findings were that a fragment exited the throat.

The 1/4/1964 JAMA article specifically stated that the autopsy pathologists concluded the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. The Journal of the American Medical Association has more integrity than to just confuse outsider speculation with autopsy findings.

We can only speculate on how and why McClelland said the throat wound was a fragment wound that early in the day, but you're assuming he had no contact with any of the autopsy professionals at the time. We have the autopsy doctors sticking a probe in the base of the head and exiting the throat, and discussing this scenario, so there's not much point in playing "what came first, the chicken or the egg".

This isn't speculation from those who never examined the body. We have historical basis for this possibility. We at least know that the conclusions of the autopsy were malleable.
 
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All it suggests is that journalists using partial information reached the wrong conclussion. It is nothing new, it is nothing shocking, it does not suggest the autopsy reports were fudged, faked, or covering up.

The autopsy records, the photographs, and the XRays prove the entry wound was higher than you are claiming. There was no wound where you insist, you are 100mm too low. You have no objective evidence to suggest the wound moved, or that there was ever a wound where you claim.
 
HSienzant, the concept of the throat wound as an exit for a head shot is not just based on a reversal of the initial speculation that a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. The diagram in the Boston Globe article CLEARLY depicts a bullet entering in the exact area of the head noted in the autopsy. Nobody at Parkland remembered that small head wound. Therefore, this is most likely information leaked to the media directly from the autopsy. You'd have to believe in a pretty big coincidence otherwise.

What part of "more complete details are not expected until the autopsy is performed..." (from the very story I cited and you now reference) did you not understand? You're cherry-picking and speculating and ignoring contrary evidence from the same source you're building your argument upon.


Lipsey clearly remembered this scenario being discussed at the autopsy, and remembered a metal probe being pushed through low in the back of the head and it coming out of the throat.

Doesn't matter. It's fifteen years after the fact. Recollections are not reliable. He 'clearly' remembered it?


Robinson, corroborating Lipsey, also suggested (in 1977) that this scenario was discussed at the autopsy. He also remembered a probe being stuck in the base of the head. In 1998, he doubled down on his recollection and added that he remembered seeing the probe that entered the base of the head come out of the throat.

And you think that recollection overturns the autopsy photos, the autopsy x-rays, the autopsy report, and the conclusions of every qualified pathologist to review the extant materials exactly why?


Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission casually mentioned that the autopsy findings were that a fragment exited the throat.

Asked and answered. This is the FBI Friday night conclusion as quoted by Lifton.


The 1/4/1964 JAMA article specifically stated that the autopsy pathologists concluded the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. The Journal of the American Medical Association has more integrity than to just confuse outsider speculation with autopsy findings.

Can you cite for what they name as their source?


We can only speculate on how and why McClelland said the throat wound was a fragment wound that early in the day, but you're assuming he had no contact with any of the autopsy professionals at the time.

You're assuming he did. And we know he didn't. His speculation is his speculation only. As noted earlier.

McClelland's memo is from Friday, 11/22/63, at 4:45 Central time. That's 5:45 Eastern time. That's the time McClelland put on his memo.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0275b.htm

The plane landed back in Washington at 5:58-5:59 pm Eastern time.
Kellerman: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0053b.htm
Clint Hill: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0076a.htm

So we know it wouldn't have mattered if McClelland had talked to any of the autopsy pathologists before his memorandum for the record, because the autopsy pathologists didn't even have the body in their possession yet. Heck, the body was still on the plane, still in the air. Try another speculation that ignores the facts.


We have the autopsy doctors sticking a probe in the base of the head and exiting the throat, and discussing this scenario, so there's not much point in playing "what came first, the chicken ]or the egg".

Only this stems completely from the recollections of two men 15 and 33 years after the fact, by your own admission.


This isn't speculation from those who never examined the body.

Neither Lipsey nor Robinson are pathologists. You can't even put Robinson in the autopsy room at any time during the autopsy.

Kellerman testified (2H100) that the morticians were allowed in only near the end of the autopsy. Clint Hill (2H143) said the same, "...the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler [sic - Gawler] Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket."

Joe Hagan (Tom Robinson's boss) said that the Gawler embalming team didn't even go to Bethesda until 11:00pm. The autopsy concluded about midnight.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=713#relPageId=3&tab=page

This of course contradicts Robinson's statement that they hadn't opened the chest yet and he arrived relatively early in the autopsy. You should be aware that people almost always inflate their own importance in the stories they tell. Why should we presume Lipsey and Robinson are different?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_autopsy#Personnel_present_during_autopsy


We have historical basis for this possibility. We at least know that the conclusions of the autopsy were malleable.

The conclusion changed from no transit to transit when Dr. Humes learned from Dr. Perry that there was a bullet wound in the throat. Period. Full stop. Anything beyond that is your speculation built upon 'recollections' from 15 years after the fact and 33 years after the fact.

Hank
 
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Just peeking my head in to say something quick until later.

Today I went to Dallas and saw the Sixth floor museum, the grassy knoll, etc.

I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.
 
What part of "more complete details are not expected until the autopsy is performed..." (from the very story I cited and you now reference) did you not understand? You're cherry-picking and speculating and ignoring contrary evidence from the same source you're building your argument upon.

Where does that quote come from? I think the Boston Globe article with the diagram was published on the afternoon of 11/23/1963. The autopsy was obviously over by then, and you're saying it's pure coincidence that the diagram depicts a trajectory with the same exact head entry location detailed in the autopsy materials and recalled by the autopsy witnesses?

Doesn't matter. It's fifteen years after the fact. Recollections are not reliable. He 'clearly' remembered it?

Sure, HSienzant. Two close autopsy witnesses were hallucinating about the same exact thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIM7Tj2s4Hg

Here's Lipsey's full interview audio. Anybody can hear it and judge for themselves.

And you think that recollection overturns the autopsy photos, the autopsy x-rays, the autopsy report, and the conclusions of every qualified pathologist to review the extant materials exactly why?

lol

Asked and answered. This is the FBI Friday night conclusion as quoted by Lifton.

What? Was the FBI ripping off McClelland too?

Can you cite for what they name as their source?

The autopsy pathologists.

You're assuming he did. And we know he didn't. His speculation is his speculation only. As noted earlier.

McClelland's memo is from Friday, 11/22/63, at 4:45 Central time. That's 5:45 Eastern time. That's the time McClelland put on his memo.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0275b.htm

The plane landed back in Washington at 5:58-5:59 pm Eastern time.
Kellerman: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0053b.htm
Clint Hill: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0076a.htm

So we know it wouldn't have mattered if McClelland had talked to any of the autopsy pathologists before his memorandum for the record, because the autopsy pathologists didn't even have the body in their possession yet. Heck, the body was still on the plane, still in the air. Try another speculation that ignores the facts.

If this interpretation is correct, then of course let's remember that it would be totally natural to speculate that the throat wound was a shrapnel wound by 5 PM. Dr. McClelland didn't see the back wound, and by then the world was being told that the sniper was in the Depository from above and behind. McClelland may have been trying to reconcile the tiny throat wound he saw with a shot from above and behind. He was probably under the impression that Kennedy was only shot once, in the head, somehow causing a large posterior hole like he remembered.

Here's what McClelland says about what he can remember about his impressions of the throat wound from a 2008 interview (In The Eye Of History):

7ApcI8K.jpg


Let's also remember that Lipsey remembered that the doctors may have considered the possibility that a whole bullet, not just a piece of shrapnel, exited the throat (a three-shot scenario). I maintain, this information to too specific to have no basis in reality. Humes, Boswell and Finck certainly didn't talk about this, but it probably happened.

Neither Lipsey nor Robinson are pathologists. You can't even put Robinson in the autopsy room at any time during the autopsy.

Kellerman testified (2H100) that the morticians were allowed in only near the end of the autopsy. Clint Hill (2H143) said the same, "...the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler [sic - Gawler] Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket."

Joe Hagan (Tom Robinson's boss) said that the Gawler embalming team didn't even go to Bethesda until 11:00pm. The autopsy concluded about midnight.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=713#relPageId=3&tab=page

This of course contradicts Robinson's statement that they hadn't opened the chest yet and he arrived relatively early in the autopsy. You should be aware that people almost always inflate their own importance in the stories they tell. Why should we presume Lipsey and Robinson are different?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_autopsy#Personnel_present_during_autopsy

Sure, HSienzant. Two close autopsy witnesses were hallucinating about the same exact thing.

The conclusion changed from no transit to transit when Dr. Humes learned from Dr. Perry that there was a bullet wound in the throat. Period. Full stop. Anything beyond that is your speculation built upon 'recollections' from 15 years after the fact and 33 years after the fact.

Hank

Even Boswell was willing to concede to the HSCA "by the end of the autopsy, we realized we had an exit wound" (in the throat). Finck admitted to the ARRB that a probe rod was involved at some point in the autopsy, but said he couldn't remember details. If Humes won't budge on this issue and admit that the throat wound was probed, that's kind of troubling.


HSienzant, do you consider it likely that a probe rod was shoved from the back wound to the throat wound at some point in the autopsy? Because that's another issue that's pretty troubling if Humes et. al aren't willing to talk about it.
 
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I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.

That's because the 6th Floor Museum is run by sane people.
 
Just peeking my head in to say something quick until later.

Today I went to Dallas and saw the Sixth floor museum, the grassy knoll, etc.

I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.
Cool story bro'.

With your propensity for making things up and disregarding any facts thrown your way, how am I to believe you actually went to Dallas, let alone the TSBD? Did you get a ticket or take some time stamped photos? If you did, please post here. If you don't, I will continue to believe you are just spinning another yarn.
 
Cool story bro'.

With your propensity for making things up and disregarding any facts thrown your way, how am I to believe you actually went to Dallas, let alone the TSBD? Did you get a ticket or take some time stamped photos? If you did, please post here. If you don't, I will continue to believe you are just spinning another yarn.

I couldn't believe it either. Anybody who's been to the sixth floor museum can back me up, though.
 
Just peeking my head in to say something quick until later.

Today I went to Dallas and saw the Sixth floor museum, the grassy knoll, etc.

I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.

Did you burn your copy of the Warren Commission report there in protest?
 
You know what we could do?

We could stop relying on sketches that are several degrees from the data, and consider the photographs.

Those show us the bullet hole, even if somebody hand waves it away as a splotch. They show the WC was correct, and the xrays back it up.

Why play silly games. There is no evidence for MichaJavas alternate wounds, there is for the real wounds. Unless he is suggesting somebody altered the body (in which case he needs to explain how) before xrays and photos were taken, his inability to understand the evidence, and looking for mismemories decades later, mean nothing. At all.
 
Why should a museum be expected to give any sort of nod much less credence to the fertile imaginings of the ill informed?

Good question- are natural history museums expected to give equal time to creationist fancies?

Ken Ham- "I am appalled at the museum's display of the discredited science behind plaques referring to fossils being millions of years old. They could've at least shown AIG's reproduction of Noah's Ark and the pre-Deluge Earth. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if a world millions of years old is even possible in a way not mentioned in Scripture."
 
Cool story bro'.

With your propensity for making things up and disregarding any facts thrown your way, how am I to believe you actually went to Dallas, let alone the TSBD? Did you get a ticket or take some time stamped photos? If you did, please post here. If you don't, I will continue to believe you are just spinning another yarn.

You can see some of the Sixth Floor Museum displays online at google maps.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.779...4!1sERhZKPuMAz4AAAQIL8DDVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.779...4!1sXcmF15ElYxkAAAQIL8C-1g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hank
 
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