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Proof of Immortality, the IV league

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LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

I had a knee replacement in January. In the middle of it, I woke up for a minute, heard the sander buzzing off the bits of arthritis on the bone, and the doctor noticed that my eyes were open, and said "you're doing great" and I went back under. Nothing remotely unusual.
 
How about the following case?

You keep quoting from this book without answering what you have done to verify that the accounts it contains are true, and accurately and completely reported. You neglect to do this even after it was shown to you how your editors had misrepresented the other accounts you cited. In all your threads here you have a habit of using secondary sources whose purported diligence you simply took for granted. Why should we pay attention to this Gish gallop of second-hand anecdotes to which you can't be bothered to apply even the slightest critical thought?
 
The potential ways that veridical NDE accounts could be discounted have been pretty well accounted for in that particlar account.

That would still not make it evidence in the scientific sense, such as to support the claim of life after death. Your hypothetical attempt to address some of the objections that have been raised in other cases does not equate to having met standards of repeatability, rigor, and empirical control that would ordinarily be required for scientific evidence.
 
You keep quoting from this book without answering what you have done to verify that the accounts it contains are true, and accurately and completely reported.

Nothing, of course. Because that would both require effort and show that there is nothing of substance there.
 
LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.


What is the name of the woman and a phone number at which she can be reached?

Oh, you don't have that information. You're just telling a story you read from a guy who heard from a filmmaker who heard from a doctor something you think helps your case.

Case studies, as such, are meticulously documented. This could very well be entirely made-up, partially misremembered, selectively edited, or who knows what.

Color me as unimpressed as the Criminal Law professor was with Elle in the musical Legally Blonde.
 
LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

I already told you, I had a similar experience 6 weeks ago. While it was pretty trippy at the time, it wasn't remarkable in any way. Anaesthetics will do that to you. Most people know this.
 
Here is what you said about it in that post:


It's the process of assigning numbers that isn't helped by the formalism. What we want to know is how to get those numbers...


We have two hypotheses, H1 and H2, and we have observed some data D. Each hypothesis makes a quantitative prediction about the probability of D given the model. If H1 is that an omnipotent god showed the explorers where the water was and saved them, the the probability that they would be saved given hypothesis H1 is 1. For this model there is only one possible outcome, they get saved. So there is no making up a number, except for the fact that this is just a toy problem, anyway..

For the other hypothesis, H2: found water randomly, the assumption in the problem is that we are able to make a sound estimate that the probability is .02 based on our knowledge of the geography and climate of the desert. The number .02 was made up because this is just a toy problem, a highly simplified hypothetical. But the point is our models H1 and H2 made specific quantitative predictions about the probabilities of the observed data. Now, Jabba, he's just pulling these probabilities out of his ass. He has no model under either hypothesis that makes a quantitative prediction about the data. But don't confuse what Jabba is doing with what I'm doing. My models are made up because the problem is made up. But once we have the models in hand and the data have been observed, the models give us the probabilities of the data.

In a real problem, the models would be something like this: H1: the data are normally distributed with a mean of 0 vs H2: the data are normally distribution with mean 1. Then once the data have been observed we calculate the sample mean and compute the probability (ie, likelihood) of the observed sample mean under each model, and take the ratio, which would give us the weight of the evidence for one model over the other. No numbers are made up in this process; they are determined by data and the hypotheses.
 
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No numbers are made up in this process; they are determined by data and the hypotheses.

specifically, what data would you use to determine the p(living|God)? and once you have these data, how exactly would you calculate this probability?
 
specifically, what data would you use to determine the p(living|God)? and once you have these data, how exactly would you calculate this probability?


Our data in the problem is that of the two explorers we sent to the desert, they both got lost and found water.
 
We have two hypotheses, H1 and H2, and we have observed some data D. Each hypothesis makes a quantitative prediction about the probability of D given the model. If H1 is that an omnipotent god showed the explorers where the water was and saved them, the the probability that they would be saved given hypothesis H1 is 1. For this model there is only one possible outcome, they get saved. So there is no making up a number, except for the fact that this is just a toy problem, anyway..

For the other hypothesis, H2: found water randomly, the assumption in the problem is that we are able to make a sound estimate that the probability is .02 based on our knowledge of the geography and climate of the desert. The number .02 was made up because this is just a toy problem, a highly simplified hypothetical. But the point is our models H1 and H2 made specific quantitative predictions about the probabilities of the observed data. Now, Jabba, he's just pulling these probabilities out of his ass. He has no model under either hypothesis that makes a quantitative prediction about the data. But don't confuse what Jabba is doing with what I'm doing. My models are made up because the problem is made up. But once we have the models in hand and the data have been observed, the models give us the probabilities of the data.

In a real problem, the models would be something like this: H1: the data are normally distributed with a mean of 0 vs H2: the data are normally distribution with mean 1. Then once the data have been observed we calculate the sample mean and compute the probability (ie, likelihood) of the observed sample mean under each model, and take the ratio, which would give us the weight of the evidence for one model over the other. No numbers are made up in this process; they are determined by data and the hypotheses.
I just realized my objection is even simpler than I have stated. You are using the probability of survival given God for H1, but you are using the probability of finding water for H2. To be consistent you should also say the probability of survival given random water, which would also be 1.
 
I just realized my objection is even simpler than I have stated. You are using the probability of survival given God for H1, but you are using the probability of finding water for H2. To be consistent you should also say the probability of survival given random water, which would also be 1.


Just sloppy language on my part. Assume under either hypothesis that if a lost explorer finds water he returns safely, and that under either hypothesis we are computing the probability of finding water under that hypothesis.
 
Our data in the problem is that of the two explorers we sent to the desert, they both got lost and found water.

i understand. and know that i think that your bayes formulation, etc. is accurate. the problem i'm having is how you actually calculate the p(live|God)? specifically, how would you calculate that probability from knowing "two explorers were sent to the desert, they both got lost and found water"?

To be clear, how do we derive the p(live|God), which is an actual number between 0 and 1, given this information?
 
i understand. and know that i think that your bayes formulation, etc. is accurate. the problem i'm having is how you actually calculate the p(live|God)? specifically, how would you calculate that probability from knowing "two explorers were sent to the desert, they both got lost and found water"?

To be clear, how do we derive the p(live|God), which is an actual number between 0 and 1, given this information?


The problem assumes that the probability that you get the water under the god hypothesis is 1; otherwise, it .02. You can assume whatever probability you want for the explorer living after he gets the water, as long as it's the same under both hypotheses. But, seriously, who cares. It's a toy problem designed to demonstrate a principle.
 
The problem assumes that the probability that you get the water under the god hypothesis is 1; otherwise, it .02. You can assume whatever probability you want for the explorer living after he gets the water, as long as it's the same under both hypotheses. But, seriously, who cares. It's a toy problem designed to demonstrate a principle.

i agree, it is a toy problem to illustrate a principle. i have no problem with the principle behind it (Bayes, likelihood ratio tests, etc), just that i don't see how to do this in reality, since, in reality, we can't just assume whatever prob we want if we're actually trying to answer this question.

so here's an approach we could take:
we want to construct a likelihood ratio test of the form
p(live|God)/p(live|not God)
based on data. one way to do this is to look at everyone that got lost over the past, say, 100 years and see how many of those lost lived. so we can estimate
p(live)=(#live)/(total # that got lost).
but in order to come up with p(live|God) and p(live|not God) we have to separate the # who live (numerator) into those that lived by chance and those that lived due to God helping them find water. we could then construct the likelihood ratio test.
the crux of the argument i've been making is that i can't see any way to meaningfully do this. therefore, although you've showed this test is theoretically possible, i can't see how it is possible in practice, as the only way we could separate the #live into those saved by God and those saved by random chance is to use anecdotal (self-reported) evidence.
would you agree?
 
LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.
Even if this story is absolutely true as stated (which you have no way of verifying) the simplest explanation is that the patient knew before her operation that another patient was going to have their leg amputated at the same time. Maybe they were in the same ward. Maybe they met and chatted in a waiting room when attending for appointments before they were admitted. Maybe they knew each other from church, or a local club. Maybe the patient heard a couple of nurses chatting about the other operation whilst she was going under. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

How do you propose to eliminate all the possible mundane explanations for how this patient might have known what was going on in the next theatre?
 
i agree, it is a toy problem to illustrate a principle. i have no problem with the principle behind it (Bayes, likelihood ratio tests, etc), just that i don't see how to do this in reality, since, in reality, we can't just assume whatever prob we want if we're actually trying to answer this question.

so here's an approach we could take:
we want to construct a likelihood ratio test of the form
p(live|God)/p(live|not God)
based on data. one way to do this is to look at everyone that got lost over the past, say, 100 years and see how many of those lost lived. so we can estimate
p(live)=(#live)/(total # that got lost).
but in order to come up with p(live|God) and p(live|not God) we have to separate the # who live (numerator) into those that lived by chance and those that lived due to God helping them find water. we could then construct the likelihood ratio test.
the crux of the argument i've been making is that i can't see any way to meaningfully do this. therefore, although you've showed this test is theoretically possible, i can't see how it is possible in practice, as the only way we could separate the #live into those saved by God and those saved by random chance is to use anecdotal (self-reported) evidence.
would you agree?


I'm pretty happy with just assuming under H1 that the God we're talking about isn't a slacker, and so the probability that the explorer lives under H1 is 1.

That said, the problem you've brought up is a standard problem in Bayesian inference, namely, that we may have one or more parameters in our models whose values we do not know. The correct way (both theoretically and practically) to deal with this situation is to represent our state of knowledge about the parameter by using a probability distribution.

In the current problem, we "know" that the probability that an explorer finds water randomly on his own is 0.02. Even if we don't know how much help God would be, it seems reasonable to assume that with God's help the explorer doesn't do any worse than random chance. So under the God hypothesis (H1), it seems reasonable to say that the probability p of finding water is in the interval [.2, 1]. If we are unwilling to make further assumptions about p we could assume that all values in that range are equally likely, or in other words that p has a uniform distribution on the interval [.2, 1]. We then model each explorer's outcome (lives or dies) as a bernoulli random variable, Y_i.

Under H1 (God), our model is

Y_i | p ~ bern(p)
p ~ uniform[.02, 1] .

Under H2 (random), our model is

Y_i ~ bern(.02) .

Under H2 (random), the likelihood is as before: .02^2 = .0004 .

Under H1 (God), we now need to find the marginal likelihood, a continuous weighted average of the likelihood, averaged over the possible values of p (.02 to 1), with the weights for each possible value given by the prior distribution (actually, density) on p. The uniform density on [.02, 1] has the constant value 1/.98 = 1.02 (approx). Thus, we find the marginal likelihood by integrating the binomial likelihood function times the prior on the binomial parameter p:

L_H1.gif


Our data consist of 2 explorers, both of whom got lost, but found water and lived. Thus n=2 and y=2. Plugging those values into the above expression and carrying out the integration, we find that the (marginal) likelihood under H1, L(Y|H1) = .34013.

Thus the ratio of the marginal likelihood under H1 and the likelihood under H2, customarily called the Bayes factor, is .34013 / .0004 = 850.

Thus, the weight of the evidence in favor of H1 over H2, where H1 reflects our uncertainty about God's helpfulness, is 850, about a third of that for our omnipotent God, but still strongly favoring H1 over H2.
 
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Can I just remind posters that the point I was making when I brought up the explorers story was about selection. Everyone who comes out of the desert has a story about finding water because only those who found water came out of the desert. There are many more stories than those, but we don't get to hear them. Every story in Jabba's book about NDEs was selected because it fit the authors' preferred narrative. There are many more stories than those, but you won't learn anything about them by reading that book.
 
Indeed. Jabba, at absolute best, is casting a net where every line is 5 inches apart and declaring that he's proven that every animal in the sea is bigger then 5 inches because that's all his net is catching.

And even that metaphor is being unbelievably generous.
 
Can I just remind posters that the point I was making when I brought up the explorers story was about selection. Everyone who comes out of the desert has a story about finding water because only those who found water came out of the desert. There are many more stories than those, but we don't get to hear them. Every story in Jabba's book about NDEs was selected because it fit the authors' preferred narrative. There are many more stories than those, but you won't learn anything about them by reading that book.

Indeed. Jabba, at absolute best, is casting a net where every line is 5 inches apart and declaring that he's proven that every animal in the sea is bigger then 5 inches because that's all his net is catching.

And even that metaphor is being unbelievably generous.

:bigclap
 
Can I just remind posters that the point I was making when I brought up the explorers story was about selection. Everyone who comes out of the desert has a story about finding water because only those who found water came out of the desert. There are many more stories than those, but we don't get to hear them. Every story in Jabba's book about NDEs was selected because it fit the authors' preferred narrative. There are many more stories than those, but you won't learn anything about them by reading that book.
Yes, which is the context I have been harping on about, though in jt512's iteration the two explorers are the only two who have ever ventured into the area and so, by definition, there are no missing anecdotes of non-surviving explorers to find. That this brings into question the 2% he is using for survival by random-finding-of-water can be set aside for the moment.

One can illustrate this issue by using the latest hypothetical and jt512's approach to it:

H1 is the God hypothesis
H2 is the Random hypothesis

But now the person using Bayes is speaking with us and must use our anecdotes. For instance:

H3 is my story of having proven that everyone who invokes God in any context is lying.

H4 is Slowvehicle's story that he snuck into the desert and saw that both explorers went only 1 mile in, drank the water they had snuck in with them, dirtied themselves up to appear as if they had been through terrible trials, and then returned with fake stories.

H5 is Pixel42's story that she flew her personally-developed hovercraft into the desert, pretended to be God, and gave water to the explorers.

H6 is Nonpareil's story that he knows the explorers and the desert itself are part of a governmental conspiracy and do not actually exist.


Now that jt512 has heard these anecdotes, he must use them in Bayes, and he cannot escape the need by claiming the hypothetical has defined limits because he has insisted that both sides must be able to agree on the probabilities of the anecdotes; by bringing in others, he must accept their anecdotal knowledge, too.
 
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