Proof of Immortality, the IV league

[The Sparrow]

There are almost no gaps left now to squeeze 'god' into, so.......invent new gaps!

Sorta like theistic evolution. Those aren't random mutations, they are god guided mutations that just look random.
Woo slingers will always find a new 'gap'.

 

[Jedi]

It all works under Mr. Bayes.

P(D) = 0.02
P(H1) = 0
P(D | H1) = 1 (Sure, why not.)

P(H1 | D) = P(D | H1) x P(H1) / P(D) = 0

There is no damage done by introducing the conditional (albeit impossible).

BTW,

 

[theprestige]

You have conceded that even if it is considered evidence it is very weak evidence.

Be careful. Jabba's technique is to present something as a concession, when it is actually the thin edge of the wedge of equivocation he intends to drive through the argument.

He actually has conceded nothing. The moment you go along with his "concession", he'll go right back to "if you accept the mere anecdotal possibility, then you must accept the absolute mathematical certainty".

 

[John Jones]

- As you know, my claim is that anecdotes can provide evidence.
- Here, I'm trying to provide evidence for immateriality and claiming that this particular anecdote would provide such evidence.

Your original claim was that you could prove immortality. I guess that's long gone along with any credibility your arguments might have had.

 

[Loss Leader]

No. You said you would prove immortality. As much as you want those goalposts to widen, they will not. "Immateriality" is not the same as immortality.

To my understanding, Jabba was supposed to prove immateriality as a step towards proving the existence of a soul as a step towards proving that the soul is immortal as a step towards a statistical argument that immortality is more likely than materialistic mortality.

If immateriality shows no evidence of being possible, then a probability greater than zero cannot be assigned.

I agree, however, that Jabba has twisted and meandered so very far from his own argument that it is difficult to keep track. One suspects he is trying to lose us in the weeds and then rush back and claim that he's proven his point.

It reminds me very much of this one scene in the musical Legally Blonde ...

 

[John Jones]

To my understanding, Jabba was supposed to prove immateriality as a step towards proving the existence of a soul as a step towards proving that the soul is immortal as a step towards a statistical argument that immortality is more likely than materialistic mortality.

If immateriality shows no evidence of being possible, then a probability greater than zero cannot be assigned.

I agree, however, that Jabba has twisted and meandered so very far from his own argument that it is difficult to keep track. One suspects he is trying to lose us in the weeds and then rush back and claim that he's proven his point.

It reminds me very much of this one scene in the musical Legally Blonde ...

Bingo. And he seems to think no one can spot this perfidy for what it is.

 

[Dancing David]

Mojo,
- Say that a patient claims that he saw something occur in a room down the hall while he was being resuscitated. Actually during the resuscitation, witnesses in the room down the hall reported the (same) incident to a nurse. Prior to telling the nurse what the patient had claimed, staff asked her what had happened. The nurse provided the same story in detail. The particular event was quiet, had nothing to do with the patient and was not something that anyone would expect to occur in a hospital.
- Wouldn't you agree that such would be at least weak evidence for immateriality?

No, you haven't eliminated your confounding factors in the first part

 

[Mojo]

Be careful. Jabba's technique is to present something as a concession, when it is actually the thin edge of the wedge of equivocation he intends to drive through the argument.

He actually has conceded nothing. The moment you go along with his "concession", he'll go right back to "if you accept the mere anecdotal possibility, then you must accept the absolute mathematical certainty".

I'm not going along with it; I'm pointing out that what he is proposing is inadequate for his argument.

 

[abaddon]

I'm not going along with it; I'm pointing out that what he is proposing is inadequate for his argument.

That doesn't matter. Jabba will claim your agreement. He doesn't do nuance in any way, shape or form.

 

[Mojo]

That doesn't matter. Jabba will claim your agreement.

Jabba's claims don't matter. They are unsupported by evidence

 

[Dancing David]

Mojo,
- It is an anecdote.
- As you know, my claim is that anecdotes can provide evidence.
- Here, I'm trying to provide evidence for immateriality and claiming that this particular anecdote would provide such evidence.
- It's always possible that there is a flaw in the claims and/or logic, but the info we have supports the belief that something immaterial is going on -- and, if mainstream science hadn't pretty much dismissed the possibility of immateriality, this anecdote would clearly be some evidence for it.

however you have yet to eliminate confounding factors so what you have is just as likely evidence of normal everyday occurrences with out any need for any 'immaterial'.

 

[Dancing David]

jt,
- How about that physics is missing a major piece (or dimension) of the puzzle?

lacking evidence in your presentation, no evidence presented that can not be explained by physics and normal occurrences

 

[Jabba]

Mojo,
...
- It's always possible that there is a flaw in the claims and/or logic...

You think? ...

- Yes.
- Do you think it's possible that there are no flaws in the claims and/or logic?

 

[Slowvehicle]

- Yes.
- Do you think it's possible that there are no flaws in the claims and/or logic?

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Perhaps, instead of polling for something you can pretend is agreement, you ought to simply present the specific "flaws in the claims and/or logic" (with evidence) that, in your opinion, indicate the existence of a "soul" (to say nothing of its "immortality").

I remain, in familiar territory, yours &ct.

 

[Jabba]

Mojo,
- It is an anecdote.
- As you know, my claim is that anecdotes can provide evidence.
- Here, I'm trying to provide evidence for immateriality and claiming that this particular anecdote would provide such evidence.
- It's always possible that there is a flaw in the claims and/or logic, but the info we have supports the belief that something immaterial is going on -- and, if mainstream science hadn't pretty much dismissed the possibility of immateriality, this anecdote would clearly be some evidence for it.

...
You have conceded that even if it is considered evidence it is very weak evidence...

- No, I haven't.
- I have conceded that accounts that do constitute evidence may be very weak evidence. I did not say that the theoretical account I included above would be weak evidence. Such an account, by itself, should be quite strong evidence. The potential ways that veridical NDE accounts could be discounted have been pretty well accounted for in that particlar account.

 

[Loss Leader]

- No, I haven't.
- I have conceded that accounts that do constitute evidence may be very weak evidence. I did not say that the theoretical account I included above would be weak evidence. Such an account, by itself, should be quite strong evidence. The potential ways that veridical NDE accounts could be discounted have been pretty well accounted for in that particlar account.

Except for, you know, the fact that nothing in that particular account can be verified by anybody. For all we know, it is completely made up.

We can't even go to the hospital to reenact the incident like when Elle had her classmate reenact showering with a perm in the musical Legally Blonde.

 

[The Sparrow]

....The potential ways that veridical NDE accounts could be discounted have been pretty well accounted for in that particlar account.

Its like when my brother and me as kids would have these battles inventing superheroes with continually tweaked powers to try and make our particular hero able to defeat the others.

"well he couldn't kill granola man because granola man could just time travel back to before the moment he was killed"

"ya? well shoelace man has time travel blocking powers"

etc etc

 

[The Sparrow]

....
We can't even go to the hospital to reenact the incident like when Elle had her classmate reenact showering with a perm in the musical Legally Blonde.

K, ever so slowly, you are beginning to convince me I should see Legally blond.

 

[Loss Leader]

K, ever so slowly, you are beginning to convince me I should see Legally blond.

... the musical.

 

[Jabba]

Except for, you know, the fact that nothing in that particular account can be verified by anybody. For all we know, it is completely made up.

We can't even go to the hospital to reenact the incident like when Elle had her classmate reenact showering with a perm in the musical Legally Blonde.

LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.