Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[Mojo]

Have you ever had an NDE, Mojo? Do you think you know what you are talking about?

What makes you think that someone who has experienced a hallucination is in a good position to assess whether or not it was a real experience?

 

[MaartenVergu]

What makes you think that someone who has experienced a hallucination.. etc

He knows what an hallucination is. You don't.
Someone who had an NDE and an hallucination can tell you the difference. You don't.

 

[Mojo]

Do you think you know what you are talking about?

Well, I haven't just posted an article about the effects of hallucinogens as if it supports my arguments about NDEs and then claimed that NDEs are not hallucinations...

 

[Mojo]

He knows what an hallucination is. You don't.
Someone who had an NDE and an hallucination can tell you the difference. You don't.

How can he tell the difference between an NDE and a hallucination of an NDE?

 

[MaartenVergu]

By listening to the 'anecdotical evidence' of people who actually experienced these phenomena.
Or by reading books from people who actually studied these testimonies and discovered patterns.

 

[Mojo]

By listening to the 'anecdotical evidence' of people who actually experienced these phenomena.

How do people who have actually experienced these phenomena know that the phenomenon they actually experienced was a real NDE and not an hallucination of an NDE?

 

[fagin]

I think we are back here again....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291423

 

[MaartenVergu]

How do people who have actually experienced these phenomena know that the phenomenon they actually experienced was a real NDE and not an hallucination of an NDE?

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Some hallucinations from hallucinogenics can be chaotic, incoherent, etc. Some can be otherwise. And hallucinations from hallucinogenics are not all hallucinations. There are many accounts of coherent, non-chaotic hallucinations from people with conditions such as schizophrenia or temporal lobe epilepsy.

When I was a kid my friend had an operation at the dentist's and he wanted to be put out, so was given gas. The next day he was telling me about what it felt like, and he was talking about the traditional tunnel of light, looking down on the scene from above, etc. In other words, a traditional NDE, except he was just becoming unconscious because of ingesting narcotics.

 

[abaddon]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

Why do they fail when tested?

 

[steenkh]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

Complete nonsense. Most experiences of hallucinations are indistinguishable from reality. If people could tell the difference, they would commit murder, or suicides because of hallucinations.

I have had arguments with a hallucinating person who could clearly see a light switch on the wall where there was none - and I simply could not explain that there was none, so that our relationship almost broke because I used "ridiculous arguments in order to avoid doing a small favour, like working a switch".

 

[turingtest]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

"Realistic" is not necessarily the same thing as "real"; I've had dreams realistic enough to leave me gasping for breath on waking, and never mistook them for a reality outside what my sleeping mind had created.

 

[Donn]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

No. The reports, the anecdotes, paint them this way, but you can't say it for certain. You are wrong to say they have such and such characteristics.

Simply wrong.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
<snip>

I wonder if you would be so kind as to support this assertion. I, for one, would appreciate it if you would, given that your definition of "hallucination" does not appear to co-incide with the actual definition of the term.

 

[JayUtah]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.

Nope.

A former business partner of mine had a sister who was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and later institutionalized. She lived with him for a year prior to that diagnosis and treatment, and I interacted with her on almost a daily basis. Her hallucinations were not incoherent. The whole point of that particular ailment is that the hallucinations it sometimes causes are fundamentally indistinguishable from reality from the sufferer's point of view.

 

[Nonpareil]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

Right. So you have a completely unrealistic and exceptionally limited idea of both near-death experiences and hallucinations as a whole. Good to clear that up.

 

[Belz...]

Ok, let's quote an other study:

"Damn! They didn't fall for it. Let's try something else."

 

[Giordano]

James Whinnery MD studied the effects of high G forces on Navy Pilots to understand how they would react to the G forces of flying F-14s. These aircraft are capable of speeds twice the speed of sound.

Dr. Whinnery discovered that at the first stages of brain death, the pilots would have experiences similar to near death experiences. He was able to show that the experiences occured only after the pilots became unconscious, had seizures and loss of muscle tone. In other words, after complete unconsciousness, when they started the first stages of brain death, consciousness suddenly returned.

http://www.magarchive.tcu.edu/articles/2008-01-AN2.asp

Ah- back again after your repeated pattern of neglecting this topic for a months-long period, only to return and to reintroduce into the debate the same arguments that were previously completely negated in the prior discussions. I don't see how this posting approach is effective. We all have good memories and the prior debate is still there, up thread, for all of us to review.

As to this quote- exactly our point. Unconsciousness (and the return to consciousness) in general, whether from G-forces or from "near-death" experiences, produces the same mental experiences. "Near-death" experiences are episodes of unconsciousness from which the reporter has returned. Calling them "near death experiences" is absolute nonsense! None of the "NDE" reportes have died any more than the high G subjects- they are people who have lapsed into unconsciousness and who have recovered. If you can cite any well documented "dead and returned" stories- that would be more relevant and interesting.

 

[Giordano]

Ok, let's quote an other study:

"Drs. Carhart-Harris, Nutt, and colleagues used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to study the effects of psilocybin on brain activity in 30 experienced hallucinogen users. In this study, intravenous administration of 2 mg of psilocybin induced a moderately intense psychedelic state that was associated with reductions of neuronal activity in brain regions such as the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) and the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC).
The mPFC and ACC are highly interconnected with other brain regions and are believed to be involved in functions such as emotional regulation, cognitive processing, and introspection. Based on their findings, the authors of the study concluded that hallucinogens reduce activity in specific “hub” regions of the brain, potentially diminishing their ability to coordinate activity in downstream brain regions. In effect, psilocybin appears to inhibit brain regions that are responsible for constraining consciousness within the narrow boundaries of the normal waking state, an interpretation that is remarkably similar to what Huxley proposed over half a century ago."
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-psychedelics-expand-mind-reducing-brain-activity/

Then why did you cite the first study? Are you disavowing it now? And how this psilocybin study relevant to "NDEs" at all? It seems more like a suggestion to take hallucinogens to "expand one's consciousness."

 

[Giordano]

The difference is: hallucinations are chaotic, incoherent etc.
NDE's are realistic. They have all characteristics (visually, tactile, auditory etc.) of a an experienced reality.

Absolutely incorrect!

I have had hallucinations when I was exhausted and had to carry on without sleep performing a potentially dangerous task. The hallucinations felt quite real from all perspectives- visual, tactile, and auditory. I sensed things were there and real even though my logical mind knew that they should not be there. Luckily the episode was short and I could see as time progressed how the hallucinations were misinterpretations of the reality driven by my fatigue. But when I experienced them they were organized, coherent, and had all the characteristics of an experienced reality.

And I am not clinically mentally ill. From what I've seen of those who are, particularly schizophrenics, their hallucinations/delusions are very real, long lasting, organized, and well integrated to them and absolutely indistinguishable from real experiences. This is very well established.