How to fix black America?

[Darth Rotor]

How to fix black America?

Is this premise flawed at its core? Is it falling into the separate but equal trap?

At the risk of being accused of living in a fantasy land, it would seem to me that fixing/changing/improving/evolving America such that a perceived need for black America merges into the great melting pot is a better conceptual basis. I was under the impression that this idea is a core part of the message in Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech.

If the narrative and conceptual basis sustains the idea of A People Apart as an entering assumption (axiom?), might most solutions suffer from being fruits of a poison tree?

 

[Varanid]

Ok let's start with that. What you put that money on? Remember that they already have access to free education.

Sure, because a high school in Watts or central Atlanta is the exact same thing as a high school in a (mostly) white suburb.

You've either never visited an inner city school or you don't care about the difference.

 

[Juniversal]

How to fix black America?

Is this premise flawed at its core? Is it falling into the separate but equal trap?

At the risk of being accused of living in a fantasy land, it would seem to me that fixing/changing/improving/evolving America such that a perceived need for black America merges into the great melting pot is a better conceptual basis. I was under the impression that this idea is a core part of the message in Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech.

If the narrative and conceptual basis sustains the idea of A People Apart as an entering assumption (axiom?), might most solutions suffer from being fruits of a poison tree?

Bingo.The notion of a "black America" fending for itself is representative of the how we've come to accept the separate but equal mindset. It's segregation in and of itself that has been a major contributing factor to the plight of the so-called "black community". I'll admit that many self-destructive behaviors and cultural trends have developed that can only be addressed from within but many of these issues will melt away with actual integration and assimilation.

No other groups in this country have succeeded without some degree of assimilation and integration and blacks in this country (understandably) have yet to assimilate to a degree that would benefit them (us) substantially.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

The African-American community has the following problems at much higher rates than whites and the USA and general:

-crime

-poverty

-low high school & college graduation rates

-single parent homes

-drug use

-unemployment


The government tried to deal with some of these issues with welfare programs such as Section 8, SNAP, WIC, TANF, but these only helped the very immediate financial issues without helping anyone become self-reliant.

So what do we need to do? Is there anything larger society can do or does the black community have to literally fix itself?

Excellent topic!

First, let's make the inner cities safe. End corruption at the local level. Step up law enforcement with a special focus on violent and gun related crimes. Get the drugs out of the equation and support community events that emphasize good family values and bonding on display. End gang rule. Build community center safe spaces for kids to use after school. YMCA, child care facilities, etc..

Second, let's get some factories to start producing and create jobs in these areas. Industrial jobs that pay well, allow these folks the dignity of a job. Also rebuilding the inner city infrastructure would create many good paying jobs.

Third, let's provide education assistance and vocational training for these areas. Overhaul the school systems and fill these schools with teachers that stress the importance of family values along with education and how to be a productive successful citizen. Vocational training should also be an available option for those not interested in a college degree. Mechanics, welders, heating and cooling repair, electronics, electricians, construction etc. There are plenty of trades that make a great wage without a degree.

Fourth, this is not limited to one race of people. Everyone that is currently trapped in what is the disaster area of the inner city will benefit from these actions.

How would we pay for it? Well obviously the investment would be a large one. But, the taxes collected from a now gainfully employed population would repay the initial investment over time.

Of course we're going to have to weed out some of the corruption within the current Federal agencies as well. Such as Social Security disability etc. Remove some of the ridiculous disability qualifying stuff such as obesity and a few other conditions from being defined as a permanent disability currently worthy of a monthly check. Not everyone is gaming the system of course, but we need to remove the ability that would allow anyone to do so.

I know I've left out a great deal but these are a few ideas that would be a good start at solving the problem. Chris B.

 

[ponderingturtle]

As a related topic

How do we Fix Rural America?

That is a major part of people talking about why Trump won was that rural america needs fixing, well how will we do that?

How do we bring the high paying, low education jobs to small towns that they voted for?

 

[Belz...]

Sure, because a high school in Watts or central Atlanta is the exact same thing as a high school in a (mostly) white suburb.

You've either never visited an inner city school or you don't care about the difference.

No, you're right. They're not the same. So can we agree to put the money to making them as "same" as possible?

 

[Mumbles]

Sure, because a high school in Watts or central Atlanta is the exact same thing as a high school in a (mostly) white suburb.

You've either never visited an inner city school or you don't care about the difference.

To be fair...

A lot of people don't know the vast differences that make up the US school system. Even I run into something new every time I look into things, and I actively try to educate myself on these matters.

Did you know that in Baltimore, the wealthy (mostly white) kids get school busses to take them to/from school for free, while the (mostly black) poor kids have to pay for passes, and use public transportation?

I only learned that this year.

I mean, I know that some kids used public transportation to get to school, I did that as a kid, and I listened to groups like the Black Israelites rant about how awful white people are while I was trying to just listen to my Run-DMC tape.

Anyway...point is, the differences are vast. And as much as I argue with Argumemnon, he's a good person.

 

[Juniversal]

Black people were set up to fail and now there's this odd expectation that the so-called black community can and should sustain itself. Is it really surprising that the denizens of poverty island can't seem to get off? No group with the degree of isolation and poverty black America has suffered from could sustain itself.


Crime is a major talking point when discussing black America but the high degree of crime is simply a consequence of poverty and social isolation colliding head on. Americas response wasn't to extend an olive branch but to expand the prison industrial system and set it up in a manner that will further destroy black America. No surprise considering the historically antagonistic feelings toward blacks in this country that a sympathetic policy didn't develop.


Rehab for drug users and work programs for non-violent drug dealers? Nope. Prison, punishment and a system that almost makes it impossible to return to the workforce is what they prefer. Yes a self-destructive culture that glorifies criminal behaviors has developed within segments of the underclass but the American criminal justice system helped nurture that culture and made it sustainable.


The point i'm making is that broader American society has to make a lot of changes for black America to succeed as well as black America itself. In other words the question isn't simply "what does black America have to do to fix it self?". But also, "what does America have to do to help "fix" black America.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Ok let's start with that. What you put that money on? Remember that they already have access to free education.

Free education doesn't mean a good education. I wonder how the schools are in poor urban areas vs nice leafy suburbs?

Also I wonder how many of the people in the poor urban areas have the luxury of growing up in a nice stable environment where going to school every day and getting an education are seen as something that is normal and expected and possible.

Perhaps black children should just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps despite all their disadvantages but that's a lot to ask of a 5 year old living in an environment not conducive to self-development.

 

[Juniversal]

Don't forget that it wasn't too long ago that we rounded up Asians and stuck them in concentration camps. Blacks aren't the only group that have had it rough. I can't think of a more persecuted group of people than Jews.

You can in no way compare 4 years of Japanese interment to the pervasive effects 100's of years worth of slavery and Jim crow had on the black community. The difference in scale is absolutely massive. This comparison is absolutely ridiculous. Not to marginalize the plight of the Japanese during WW2 but you are literally comparing a mountain to a mole hill in terms of the larger social implications and how each event affected the trajectory of the populations.

 

[Fudbucker]

You can in no way compare 4 years of Japanese interment to the pervasive effects 100's of years worth of slavery and Jim crow had on the black community. The difference in scale is absolutely massive. This comparison is absolutely ridiculous. Not to marginalize the plight of the Japanese during WW2 but you are literally comparing a mountain to a mole hill in terms of the larger social implications and how each event affected the trajectory of the populations.

There was a long history of racism against Asians before WW2.

 

[Juniversal]

There was a long history of racism against Asians before WW2.

That's true. Thought you were wholesale comparing Japanese internment to the generational effects of slavery and discrimination against blacks. Every minority group (including white ethnic minorities in the early days) had it bad in this country at some point. Some worse than others. That being said no group suffered from the pervasive degree of oppression, discrimination and isolation (not to mention the effects of slavery) that blacks have. I don't think it's fair to compare ANY group in this country to the black population. Blacks in this country have had a very unique experience that makes almost any comparison untenable for better or for worse.

Way too often in these type of debates I see people ask, "Why aren't blacks doing better when [Insert non-black minority group here] were oppressed and are doing fine now?" Hmm I wonder why the hole dug with a shovel is shallower than the hole dug with an excavator...

 

[Juniversal]

After browsing through this thread it seems most asking questions are missing a VERY important factor in this discussion; social and economic isolation. Once you understand the effects of social and economic isolation over many, many generations you understand WHY poverty still persist to the degree it does, WHY the culture of criminality developed, WHY black communities haven't magically become bastions of middle class glory over the last several generations, ect.

 

[Distracted1]

After browsing through this thread it seems most asking questions are missing a VERY important factor in this discussion; social and economic isolation. Once you understand the effects of social and economic isolation over many, many generations you understand WHY poverty still persist to the degree it does, WHY the culture of criminality developed, WHY black communities haven't magically become bastions of middle class glory over the last several generations, ect.

I brought it up in post 121.

I think a concerted effort to encourage real integration would go a long way towards "fixing" American racial inequalities.

I think a good start would be actively encouraging middle and high income Americans to move to areas that are currently economically desolate.

 

[Belz...]

Free education doesn't mean a good education.

You're absolutely right. So now we know where to put the money.

 

[Juniversal]

I brought it up in post 121.

I think a concerted effort to encourage real integration would go a long way towards "fixing" American racial inequalities.

I think a good start would be actively encouraging middle and high income Americans to move to areas that are currently economically desolate.

100% agree. We're seeing the consequences of de-facto separate but (un)equal America. I believe real integration/assimilation would benefit the population significantly. One consequence is simply imbuing middle class values onto the population as well as better socialization for the children.

A higher degree of residential integration is important but I think desegregated schooling is just as important (if not more important) than desegregated residential areas. Schools are more segregated now then they've been in a long time and no one talks about it. This stuff has consequences.

I love this piece by John Oliver on school segregation:

You're absolutely right. So now we know where to put the money.

Why this fixation with throwing money at the problem? Clearly the problem won't be fixed by simply throwing money at it. This is not only an economic issue but a social and cultural one as well.

 

[casebro]

There simply are NO jobs, nor any need for jobs. It's what got the Formerly Working Class Whites to vote for Trump- they feel they are on the edges of all those socio-economic woes of the Blacks. It starts with not enough jobs to go around. So the Blacks get laid off then the P.R.s, now the whites. Educating blacks, whites or hispanics does no good if there are no jobs higher up the ladder either. And there aren't any factory management jobs left either.

So, are the only growth sectors of the economy health care and teaching? Teaching health care being the fastest growing? Lemme do some math- one teacher for every five students*, that's 20% better employment right there !

Problem Solved! Or would we end up with well educated underemployed in the ghettos?

* 30 students per class, 6 classes per student, so 5 teachers per 30 students. Yes, classs are bigger, but add some admin, subs, custodians...

 

[Fudbucker]

That's true. Thought you were wholesale comparing Japanese internment to the generational effects of slavery and discrimination against blacks. Every minority group (including white ethnic minorities in the early days) had it bad in this country at some point. Some worse than others. That being said no group suffered from the pervasive degree of oppression, discrimination and isolation (not to mention the effects of slavery) that blacks have. I don't think it's fair to compare ANY group in this country to the black population. Blacks in this country have had a very unique experience that makes almost any comparison untenable for better or for worse.

Way too often in these type of debates I see people ask, "Why aren't blacks doing better when [Insert non-black minority group here] were oppressed and are doing fine now?" Hmm I wonder why the hole dug with a shovel is shallower than the hole dug with an excavator...

Sure, you can have a pity party about who's had it worse. I wouldn't disagree with you that blacks have probably been treated the shabbiest of any ethnic group in this country, but that's just a matter of degree. And it still doesn't tell the story of why the black crime rate is so high, why so many blacks kids are born out of wedlock, why there are no successful black countries in the world. Jews have had it worse than just about any group I can think of. Why have they been able to form a successful country? How did they avoid the same problems that are plaguing the black community?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Sure, you can have a pity party about who's had it worse. I wouldn't disagree with you that blacks have probably been treated the shabbiest of any ethnic group in this country, but that's just a matter of degree. And it still doesn't tell the story of why the black crime rate is so high, why so many blacks kids are born out of wedlock, why there are no successful black countries in the world. Jews have had it worse than just about any group I can think of. Why have they been able to form a successful country? How did they avoid the same problems that are plaguing the black community?

You should read the entire piece on The Atlantic, The Case for Reparations. The housing policies that kept black families in particular out of the middle class are truly revealing (remember, homes are the #1 asset of most American families and the principal vehicle for generating wealth over generations). Not that there's much chance of a good-faith read attending to fact and reason.

As for successful countries, apparently you missed all the proxy wars in Africa during the Cold War, understand little about how creating a bunch of nation-states (remember colonialism?) that hardly coincided with local cultures basically has guaranteed major problems, or how major corporations are taking advantage of fledgling democracies. If the US can elect a huckster who plays the country for suckers, imagine the difficulties when there a reams of cash to finance the most depraved African leaders in exchange for "deals."

'Systemic' and 'pervasive' are words whose meanings offering clues. Look 'em up. The only pity party going, dude, is called white nationalism. Poor little babies.

 

[Juniversal]

Sure, you can have a pity party about who's had it worse. I wouldn't disagree with you that blacks have probably been treated the shabbiest of any ethnic group in this country, but that's just a matter of degree. And it still doesn't tell the story of why the black crime rate is so high, why so many blacks kids are born out of wedlock, why there are no successful black countries in the world. Jews have had it worse than just about any group I can think of. Why have they been able to form a successful country? How did they avoid the same problems that are plaguing the black community?

"Probably" had it worse? Why so dismissive? You're far too forgiving of the anti-black juggernaut (and of slavery) preceding the civil rights movement.


Why is black crime so high? Simple. Entrenched poverty and culture. Remember who we're talking about. We're talking about people who have no generational wealth and who in many cases have been confined and isolated from mainstream society for generations, and generations and generations with no nucleus of financial stability (in the household or neighborhood). These people have long felt alienated (as well as being spatially separated from) mainstream society for a LONG time.


No surprise a dysfunctional counter culture developed that exploited the easily accessible black market economy and developed it's own cultural norms, mythos and values. Unfortunately this culture has become widespread among the youth of poor black America. With black poverty so entrenched and widespread it's no surprise crime remains high with the proliferation of these cultural norms combined with poverty.


Early 20th century Italian Americans had a very similar cultural trajectory. Difference is unimpeded upward mobility post world war II and a large degree of assimilation. Just as is the case with Italians much of the crime is a figment of the prohibition era. Difference is in this current prohibition era America favored creating more harsh punishments, criminalizing drug use (which should never be treated as a criminal issue but a health issue) and essentially ending any chance for the perpetrator to successfully re-enter society. This helps fuel the cycle of poverty and dysfunction. No doubt these laws had a racial bias at their inception. The result? High crime across the black populations.