Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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I disagree with your premise the investigators did anything wrong outwith the bounds of ordinary human error - and the police are human. Decent people doing a decent job. They have better things to do than frame law-abiding folk.

Your disagreement is noted. It is also noted you still have not cited a single peer reviewed forensic DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work.

It's also noted that every time one of us cites the experts who did trash Stefanoni's work, you dream up some sort of conspiracy as to why they are corrupt and you are right......

..... still leaving no citation from an expert who sustains Stefanoni's work.
 
Your disagreement is noted. It is also noted you still have not cited a single peer reviewed forensic DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work.

It's also noted that every time one of us cites the experts who did trash Stefanoni's work, you dream up some sort of conspiracy as to why they are corrupt and you are right......

..... still leaving no citation from an expert who sustains Stefanoni's work.

She got into the Forensic Scientific Police at entry level, and after that it is a level playing field. You get to the top by merit. I know people top of their profession, earning a small fortune, yet never sat a professional exam.

Why would anyone do a research paper on Stefanoni, she is not an academic, she is salaried staff?
 
She got into the Forensic Scientific Police at entry level, and after that it is a level playing field. You get to the top by merit. I know people top of their profession, earning a small fortune, yet never sat a professional exam.

Why would anyone do a research paper on Stefanoni, she is not an academic, she is salaried staff?

It's hard to believe this is a serious response.

Why would anyone do a research paper on Stefanoni? Lol!

Lessee...... for starters, she cooperated with a wrongful prosecution! She did not disclose her work, and she was an incompetant LCN DNA technician. It's all outlined in Peter Gill's work and in the C&V report to the Hellmann court.

All independent experts are in basic agreement.

You continue to avoid naming any expert who sustains either Stefanoni's methods or her results. The one name you once offered was a prosecution expert who confirmed that the Rome lab did not follow international protocols.
 
It's hard to believe this is a serious response.

Why would anyone do a research paper on Stefanoni? Lol!

Lessee...... for starters, she cooperated with a wrongful prosecution! She did not disclose her work, and she was an incompetant LCN DNA technician. It's all outlined in Peter Gill's work and in the C&V report to the Hellmann court.

All independent experts are in basic agreement.

You continue to avoid naming any expert who sustains either Stefanoni's methods or her results. The one name you once offered was a prosecution expert who confirmed that the Rome lab did not follow international protocols.

The names you mention are defense experts. She did do controls, she did do amplifications, she did deposit the raw results with the court. Peter Gill's work is predicated on the disgraced Vecchiotti & Conti. V&C were heavily criticised by the Italian Supreme Court as 'intellectually dishonest'.
 
The names you mention are defense experts. She did do controls, she did do amplifications, she did deposit the raw results with the court. Peter Gill's work is predicated on the disgraced Vecchiotti & Conti. V&C were heavily criticised by the Italian Supreme Court as 'intellectually dishonest'.

You continue to avoid naming any expert who sustains either Stefanoni's methods or her results. You get basic facts wrong. None of the people cited were "defence" experts.

Nonetheless - you continue to avoid naming any expert who sustains either Stefanoni's methods or her results.
 
It seems Steffanoni had far better protocols than Vecchiotti did, who, as Crini, Prosecutor, pointed out under oath, did not even have a thermometer in her fridge!!! Even a supermarket would be fined for that.

Vecchiotti admitted under oath there was no possiblilty of Stefanoni's labs being contaminated, yet she lies in the Netflix that it was. Contemptible.

Do you seriously think the Rome Forensic Laboratories do not know how to control against contamination?

There was a paper from the the Netherlands state forensic institute a few years ago (which was in Forensic Science International), which discussed contamination. To summarise; even the best labs have contamination incidents. Any lab with no incidents is not recognising them or not recording them. There needs to be a system to openly report contamination rates in the forensic reports to courts but also to explain the relevance of contamination. This is especially important for trace and low template DNA tests.

The concern is that Steffanoni reports no contamination episodes, this is impossible. Sometimes in reviewing scientific papers you have to recognise results that are too good as being suspicious. Either Steffanoni was lying about there being no contamination or worse they failed to look for it and failed to recognise it.
 
The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:

“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.

In other words, Conti and Vecchiotti were not referring to the specific guidelines and recommendation of one particular international forensic organisations despite giving that impression at the appeal in Perugia. They cited a number of obscure American publications such as the the Missouri State Highway Patrol Handbook and Wisconsin Crime Laboratory Physical Evidence Handbook. The Italian Scientific Police are under no obligation to follow the DNA protocols of the Missouri State Highway Patrol and Wisconsin Crime Laboratory.

So you are backtracking on following Italian guidelines. ENFSI at the time had no guidelines for low template DNA testing. ENFSI did have standards around environmental monitoring and record keeping that the Rome lab did not appear to meet (as following ENFSI standards this should have been reported). In particular the methodology used in the knife does not follow ENFSI guidelines in putting through a sample which was quantified as containing no detectable DNA for typing.
 
The names you mention are defense experts. She did do controls, she did do amplifications, she did deposit the raw results with the court. Peter Gill's work is predicated on the disgraced Vecchiotti & Conti. V&C were heavily criticised by the Italian Supreme Court as 'intellectually dishonest'.

The following is what the 2013 Italian Supreme Court said about Conti, Vecchiotti and how in its opinion why Judge Hellmann (of the lower court) should not have acquitted.

- Chieffi claimed that Professor Vecchiotti made the decision not to test 36I, when that decision should have been made by the trial judge, esp. when Professor Novelli testified to the Hellmann court that apparatus existed to test such a small sample.

- Chieffi claimed that the Hellmann court erred in not including the assessment by Prof Torricelli which was omitted in the Hellmann report which should at least have been considered.

- Chieffi claimed that Prof Novelli was the source of the contention that the vehicle of contamination must be demonstrated before it could be entertained by the court; claiming - "The burden of proof must be borne by the one making the claim."​
Other than this I can find no reference in the 2013 Chieffi report matching the reference you put into "quotes", about Vecchiotti being "intellectually dishonest".

Is this yet again something you just made up?
 
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The courts upheld, and Conti and Vecchiotti themselves concurred under oath, that far from being inconclusive, it was a strong profile of Meredith, at 15 alleles.

Vecchiotti admitted under oath there was no foundation to claim Stefanoni's laboratory was 'contaminated'.

Mez had never been to the abode where the presumed murder knife was found. The knife was collected by a completely different team than Stefanoni's. There is no logical path of contamination.

(Remembering it is pantomime season here in England)

Oh yes there are!

There was a breach in the chain of evidence. The bag the knife was sealed in was opened in the police station, in a non clean laboratory environment. It was picked up and examined. We have no record of who else was present or what other material from the crime scene had been through the room this occurred in. It was placed in a (calendar / diary?) box not intended for evidence (we have no information about where this had been or who might have handled this). The knife was transferred to the box. The box was never sampled by Steffanoni for DNA which would have been good practice (partly because DNA from the knife might have fallen off in transit so the contents of the container should always be tested).

There was no negative control reported for the vacuum extraction process that is well recognised to have a high risk of contamination. We have no good explanation for why Steffanoni did not do RTPCR quantification. Why she processed a sample with no detectable DNA contrary to guidelines. We have seen no environmental sampling from the lab (routine practice in low template DNA work). There are many routes of contamination. We also have the problem of why there is DNA but no blood. Why it did not match the bloody imprint of a knife on a sheet, why it did not match most of the wounds. The DNA has to be examined in context.
 
So you are backtracking on following Italian guidelines. ENFSI at the time had no guidelines for low template DNA testing. ENFSI did have standards around environmental monitoring and record keeping that the Rome lab did not appear to meet (as following ENFSI standards this should have been reported). In particular the methodology used in the knife does not follow ENFSI guidelines in putting through a sample which was quantified as containing no detectable DNA for typing.


Oh, it's a case of making up which ever story seems suitable at the time. And shifting the goal posts at the drop of a hat when shown to be wrong/ignorant/illiterate in scientific method. It's quite something to behold. I wish there was some intellectually honest argument, rooted in scientific and legal understanding, to at least test certain conclusions. On the other hand, I suppose this is a rather unlikely wish, given that all arguments rooted in scientific and legal understanding are fully cognisant of (and in agreement with) the basic premises that the forensics work in this case was disgracefully inept, and that the results were presented to the (convicting) courts in a false, misleading and mendacious manner incompatible with honest science.
 
The following is what the 2013 Italian Supreme Court said about Conti, Vecchiotti and how in its opinion why Judge Hellmann (of the lower court) should not have acquitted.

- Chieffi claimed that Professor Vecchiotti made the decision not to test 36I, when that decision should have been made by the trial judge, esp. when Professor Novelli testified to the Hellmann court that apparatus existed to test such a small sample.

- Chieffi claimed that the Hellmann court erred in not including the assessment by Prof Torricelli which was omitted in the Hellmann report which should at least have been considered.

- Chieffi claimed that Prof Novelli was the source of the contention that the vehicle of contamination must be demonstrated before it could be entertained by the court; claiming - "The burden of proof must be borne by the one making the claim."​
Other than this I can find no reference in the 2013 Chieffi report matching the reference you put into "quotes", about Vecchiotti being "intellectually dishonest".

Is this yet again something you just made up?


Yes. What appears to have happened is that Chieffi's criticism of Vecchiotti over the non-retesting of 36I* has been misleadingly misappropriated to make it sound like the criticism applies equally to all of Vecchiotti's work and conclusions. And that, my friends, is intellectual dishonesty. A bit like the storm-in-a-teacup misrepresentation of the "thermometer in Vecchiotti's lab" issue, which is distorted and misrepresented by the typical pro-guilt commentator to make it seem like Vecchiotti had no idea whether the temperature in her refrigerators was appropriate (with the attendant implication that the fridge temperatures might have been significantly incorrect and improper). The truth, of course, is dramatically different. As usual, when it comes to so many pro-guilt "arguments"..........


* And as others have also pointed out, this criticism itself was misplaced and inappropriate, since Vecchiotti's lab was not qualified to carry out the retest of 36I at such minuscule levels of trace DNA (indeed, only a few labs in Europe were set up to carry out such work at that time). So had Vecchiotti "had a go" at retesting the sample, she would have been repeating and compounding the original gross error made by not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni (who carried out low-template work in a lab that manifestly was unfit for such specialised work, using work practices that were disgracefully unfit-for-purpose when working with such tiny quantities of DNA). Vecchiotti in fact did the only thing she possibly could have done as an honest, careful scientist: she decided that she could not retest 36I and obtain any results that would have had anywhere near the required levels of credibility or reliability.
 
(Remembering it is pantomime season here in England)

Oh yes there are!

There was a breach in the chain of evidence. The bag the knife was sealed in was opened in the police station, in a non clean laboratory environment. It was picked up and examined. We have no record of who else was present or what other material from the crime scene had been through the room this occurred in. It was placed in a (calendar / diary?) box not intended for evidence (we have no information about where this had been or who might have handled this). The knife was transferred to the box. The box was never sampled by Steffanoni for DNA which would have been good practice (partly because DNA from the knife might have fallen off in transit so the contents of the container should always be tested).

There was no negative control reported for the vacuum extraction process that is well recognised to have a high risk of contamination. We have no good explanation for why Steffanoni did not do RTPCR quantification. Why she processed a sample with no detectable DNA contrary to guidelines. We have seen no environmental sampling from the lab (routine practice in low template DNA work). There are many routes of contamination. We also have the problem of why there is DNA but no blood. Why it did not match the bloody imprint of a knife on a sheet, why it did not match most of the wounds. The DNA has to be examined in context.



This is such a very important component of the whole equation (and one which, needless to say, is so often ignored within pro-guilt "arguments").

As an absolutely classic illustration of the point, one might consider the infamous "Phantom of Heilbronn" case in Germany, where police were convinced they had identified the DNA of a serial killer. The DNA of the same woman kept turning up at different crime scenes (including several murders). Mysteriously, the DNA of different (but unknown) male "accomplices" also turned up at each different crime scene. The police believed they were looking for an evil female serial criminal/killer, who had strangely employed the help of a different male accomplice on each crime.

It turned out that the woman's DNA hadn't come from the actual crime scenes at all. It was present on the cotton swabs that the police were using to gather evidence at the crime scenes. And it had been deposited there by the woman who packed the cotton swabs, by hand, at the factory where they were made.

Long before this revelation finally came to light, the police should have looked at the context, and asked themselves: what is the likelihood of there being a female serial criminal/killer working over a wide geographic area of Germany, who has a different male accomplice for each and every crime she commits? It should have been easy for them to, at the very least, question their conclusion in the light of that context, and looked for another, more rational explanation. But they forgot about context for a long time, and tied themselves into their bizarre theory (with embarrassing consequences in the long run).

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888126,00.html

In the Kercher case, the police/PM should have been asking themselves, very early on, what the likelihood was of Sollecito's kitchen knife having been involved in the murder of MezzicleBezzicle? There was the bloody imprint of a completely different knife on a bed sheet in the murder room, and all of the wounds were fully compatible with the knife which had left that imprint.

In addition, there was little or no rational reason why that knife would ever have become involved, even if Knox and Sollecito had participated. There were plenty of "suitable" knives in the cottage itself, including a brand new set of good, razor sharp knives in their original box in Knox's room in the cottage. And it would have been a spectacularly bad idea of Knox and Sollecito to bring and use a knife which, had it really been used in the murder, and had subsequently been found to have been used in the murder, would so obviously directly implicate Sollecito - and by extension, Knox (in a way that, for example, the use of a knife from the kitchen drawer in the cottage would not).

On top of all that, there is also - as you point out above - a very, very serious problem with the chain of custody of this knife, and all manner of problems with the handling, testing and analysis of this knife by the incompetent Stefanoni. All of this, put together, should have led the police and PM to look at the knife in its proper context, and should have led them to realise that, all things considered, the knife did not constitute probative evidence. But they had tunnel vision and confirmation bias, of course, so they were all too willing to tie the knife into their narrative involving "volpe cattiva" Knox and pliable Sollecito - up to and including the risibly stupid idea that multiple knives were simultaneously held to MezzaSchmezzer's throat and near-simultaneously plunged into her throat (no need to concern ourselves with the very obvious risk of the assailants injuring each other with each other's knives in such close proximity with a moving victim, of course.....).

Ultimately, of course, it was the role of the courts to assess all of this properly, in the proper context. It's now a matter of public record and Supreme Court reasoning that the Massei and Nencini courts manifestly failed to consider the knife evidence properly, within the rules laid down in the law and the code of criminal procedure. Had those courts properly assessed the knife in the proper context, they should have basically thrown it out as worthless evidence. Fortunately for justice, the Supreme Court (belatedly) righted this wrong and threw the knife out - along with every single other item of physical evidence, and every single piece of prosecution testimony - as fundamentally unreliable and devoid of credibility.
 
The following is what the 2013 Italian Supreme Court said about Conti, Vecchiotti and how in its opinion why Judge Hellmann (of the lower court) should not have acquitted.

- Chieffi claimed that Professor Vecchiotti made the decision not to test 36I, when that decision should have been made by the trial judge, esp. when Professor Novelli testified to the Hellmann court that apparatus existed to test such a small sample.

- Chieffi claimed that the Hellmann court erred in not including the assessment by Prof Torricelli which was omitted in the Hellmann report which should at least have been considered.

- Chieffi claimed that Prof Novelli was the source of the contention that the vehicle of contamination must be demonstrated before it could be entertained by the court; claiming - "The burden of proof must be borne by the one making the claim."​
Other than this I can find no reference in the 2013 Chieffi report matching the reference you put into "quotes", about Vecchiotti being "intellectually dishonest".

Is this yet again something you just made up?

The intellectual dishonesty refers to Vecchiotti & Conti's wholly false claim that exhibit 36 (i) could not be analysed because it was Low Copy Number (LCN) and less than 200 picograms, when the standard convention was 100 picograms, raised by V&C just for this case. Chieffi pointed out the dissemblance as LCN analysis was carried out in embryology as of 2011. Vecchiotti & Conti then tried to argue that LCN should only be carried out in exceptional circumstances such as in identifying disaster victims or missing persons. Vecchiotti & Conti were widely reported as being found 'intellectually dishonest'.

Therefore, [65] when the Prosecutor General and the Counsel for the Civil Parties
submitted a request to complete the analysis on the basis of the scientific explanation
provided by Prof. Novelli, a geneticist of undisputed repute recognized by the [appeal]
court itself (page 79 statement of reasons), regarding the availability of instruments
capable of reliably analysing quantities even smaller than ten picograms in diagnostic
fields (such as embryology) in which the need for certainty is no less important than in the
courts, the Hellmann Court of Appeal refused on the assumption that the methods
mentioned by Prof. Novelli were “in an experimental phase” (page 84), thereby freely misinterpreting and misrepresenting the testimony of the professor, who on the contrary
mentioned the use of such techniques in diagnostic domains in which the certainty of the
result is essential

<snipped>

All the more so as the repeat of the genetic tests was requested in 2011, four years
after the initial tests; a lapse of time during which significant progress had been made in
the instruments and techniques of analysis, as Prof. Novelli, a consultant to the Prosecutor
General, stressed. Precisely on receiving the information from this consultant, who spoke
of cutting‐edge techniques while under oath – the Court fell into another gross misinterpretation, in a significant argument concerning the reliability of the results of the analyses made, by assuming the impossibility of repeating the tests even on traces found at a later time, thereby affecting the logic of the statement of reasons (Section I, 25.6.2007,
n. 24667). The Hellmann Court of Appeal also completely ignored the authoritative points offered by Professor Torricelli, who shed serious doubt on the fact that a very small quantity was found; she quantified the useful material in the new trace as 120 picograms (hearing of 6 September 2011, page 91 of transcript), which is sufficient to execute a double amplification, and she opposed the methodology by which Prof. Vecchiotti reached the decision not to proceed, in a report obviously not endorsed by the Prosecutor General and
the Civil Parties. The authoritative nature of the observations of the two consultants of the
parties [66] would have required that the Court deal with their points, which irremediably
conflicted with the assumptions of Prof. Vecchiotti, whose points could indeed be
accepted by the Court, but only after evaluation of the opposing points, which were of
equal scientific value.

<snipped>

Not doing so resulted in an error of law for failed acquisition of key evidence, with the resulting defect of obvious lack of logic in the reasoning (again due to incomplete utilisation of the inferential basis, as facts that are not just significant, but essential, were ignored), as correctly denounced by the Prosecutor
General submitting the appeal.

<snipped>
a way of operating [modus operandi] that demonstrates an unacceptable incompleteness in the evaluation, which affects the correct application of the rules for
interpreting evidence.
<snip>
Even more surprising was to accept, without any critical thinking, the thesis of the court‐
appointed experts on the “possible” contamination of the samples, a thesis which is
completely disconnected from any scientific basis suitable to adequately justify it in
concrete terms. The unproven hypothesis of contamination was taken as an axiom, once
again despite the available information, to nullify the probative value of the data collected
by the consultants as per article 360 of the Criminal Procedure Code, although the data
acquired did not support this conclusion
<snip>
As stated by the parties submitting the appeal, the judicial reasoning
did not take into account the authoritative opinions disagreeing on the subject of the
presence of contamination agents, and no adequate explanation was given on how the assumption [of contamination] could concern only a few traces (precisely the most burdensome ones from the point of view of the Defence) and not others. But above all, it
was founded on the wrong belief that it was for the prosecution to prove the absence of
contamination agents, whereas the probative facts revealed by the technical consultant
[Stefanoni] were based on investigative activities that were adequately documented:
sampling activity performed under the very eyes of the consultants of the parties, who raised no objection, and laboratory activity in an uncontaminated environment, activities
which were carried out using methodologies already tested, whose results could certainly
be challenged as to their probative value, but not for the preliminary technical activities
executed in the technical debate phase, from which it appears that no criticism was
expressed at the time, but only later


Nencini writes:

This Court considers that speaking of the contamination of exhibits in a generalized way and allowing for abstract possibilities, as was several times repeated by the Defense and by the court-appointed experts, Prof. Carla Vecchiotti and Prof. Stefano Conti, even in their written conclusions [points 4) and 5) of the conclusions of the technical report, signed by them, and quoted several times], has absolutely no meaning in the context of a criminal trial, and is objectively deceptive.
 
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(Remembering it is pantomime season here in England)

Oh yes there are!

There was a breach in the chain of evidence. The bag the knife was sealed in was opened in the police station, in a non clean laboratory environment. It was picked up and examined. We have no record of who else was present or what other material from the crime scene had been through the room this occurred in. It was placed in a (calendar / diary?) box not intended for evidence (we have no information about where this had been or who might have handled this). The knife was transferred to the box. The box was never sampled by Steffanoni for DNA which would have been good practice (partly because DNA from the knife might have fallen off in transit so the contents of the container should always be tested).

There was no negative control reported for the vacuum extraction process that is well recognised to have a high risk of contamination. We have no good explanation for why Steffanoni did not do RTPCR quantification. Why she processed a sample with no detectable DNA contrary to guidelines. We have seen no environmental sampling from the lab (routine practice in low template DNA work). There are many routes of contamination. We also have the problem of why there is DNA but no blood. Why it did not match the bloody imprint of a knife on a sheet, why it did not match most of the wounds. The DNA has to be examined in context.

The knife was covered in cellophane before placed in the stationery appointment book box. There is no way Mez' DNA could have been on that box, as she had never been in Raff's abode. The knife DID match the bloody imprint on the sheet (see Ergon's analysis on www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com ) In any case, the DNA was found within a deep striation of the knife blade. How would a cardboard box press that in?

How do you think Mez' sweater was carried away? In a sample bag, as was the rock. so, I note you are not vehemently arguing that Rudy's DNA on the sweater cuffs must also be null and void for the same reason.

Expert medical specialists did confirm the knife was compatible with the wounds.
 
Yes. What appears to have happened is that Chieffi's criticism of Vecchiotti over the non-retesting of 36I* has been misleadingly misappropriated to make it sound like the criticism applies equally to all of Vecchiotti's work and conclusions. And that, my friends, is intellectual dishonesty. A bit like the storm-in-a-teacup misrepresentation of the "thermometer in Vecchiotti's lab" issue, which is distorted and misrepresented by the typical pro-guilt commentator to make it seem like Vecchiotti had no idea whether the temperature in her refrigerators was appropriate (with the attendant implication that the fridge temperatures might have been significantly incorrect and improper). The truth, of course, is dramatically different. As usual, when it comes to so many pro-guilt "arguments"..........


* And as others have also pointed out, this criticism itself was misplaced and inappropriate, since Vecchiotti's lab was not qualified to carry out the retest of 36I at such minuscule levels of trace DNA (indeed, only a few labs in Europe were set up to carry out such work at that time). So had Vecchiotti "had a go" at retesting the sample, she would have been repeating and compounding the original gross error made by not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni (who carried out low-template work in a lab that manifestly was unfit for such specialised work, using work practices that were disgracefully unfit-for-purpose when working with such tiny quantities of DNA). Vecchiotti in fact did the only thing she possibly could have done as an honest, careful scientist: she decided that she could not retest 36I and obtain any results that would have had anywhere near the required levels of credibility or reliability.


Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, that was not the reason given by Vecchiotti for refusing to test the exhibit.
 
Crini questioning Vecchiotti

Crini questioned Vechiotti about her refusal to test sample 36(i). She tried to claim the limit was now 200 picogram when it had hitherto been 100 picograms. Crini squeezes it out of her that she was heavily influenced by pro-Knox US scientists and Prof Peter Gill. In other words, the 1951-born coroner who had worked in autopsy and in the legal medical field all her adult life knew perfectly well what the Italian Law standards were, but corruptly tried to change them in order to fulfil the US demands to free Knox whether she was guilty or not.

The great tragedy for the Kercher family is that Marasca has reinstalled this tainted and corrupt stance of Hellmann's, predicated on Vecchiotti's bent and crooked testimony.

MC: (Crini)
... So, a rule universally recognized indicating so universally recognized mimino limit below which a biological trace can not be analyzed, or at least it is better not to analyze it?
CV (Vecchiotti):
200 picograms.
MC:
200 picograms is a rule universally recognized.
CV:
Universally recognized. Some people are talking about 100 picograms.
MC:
Exactly, so it is not universally recognized.
CV:
I mean ... then, at the beginning there was talk of 100 picograms but then the threshold has been increased to 200 picograms because it is seen that 100 picograms ...
MC:
Yeah but it increased by whom? I would like to indicate the sources ... VECCCHIOTTI C. - Yes I say whom? Of course...
MC:
The sources and the date of these jobs.
CV:
Then, the 100 picograms were initially indicated by Gill in 2000, Gill 2001 Budowle 2009, following instead the definition of low copy number was considered less than 200 picograms which is more then the value associated quantities described by other authors, and other authors who have indicated 200 picograms are Caddy, Taylor, Limcare, 2001 Moretti Moretti and 2001 other work, these are the authors.MC:
Behold, these are the authors, so they are individual authors who have given their scientific opinion.
CV:
All authors have given a single scientific opinion.
MC:
So when she says ...
CV:
There are others.
MC:
... Universally or internationally recognized ...
CV:
Then I would like to know what are the others who have said that instead you can give ...
MC:
No, she do not do Dr. questions ...
CV:
No I can not do, I'm doing to myself ...
CPH:
No, you must understand the question, at least ...
CV:
I'm making myself the question, all ...
SC:
It 'a rhetorical question.
CV:
... Is a rhetorical question - we mean? - Then, all discussing threshold of 200, she also tells me to 100, are all acceptable, none of these falls below that are already the maximum limit to which it can work.
MC:
None of the ones you mentioned.
CV:
I have mentioned them all that are in the literature, I think, maybe something I may have missed ...
MC:
Ie are five then?
CV:
No look she asked me only these, there are other pages, you want me to also read the rest? I read all of them to him.
MC:
No tell me the number of authors.
CV:
Yeah sure, then look at it, we continue with ...
MC:
Excuse me, then watch the return, partially modify the question ...
Voices in the background.
CV:
No Excuse, if I want the names I read them to him all at this point I read them to him ...
CPH:
A moment, otherwise ends we understand nothing.
CV:
No problem.
MC:
We do first to say if there are discordant voices then.
CPH:
Here it is. But let's leave the time to answer the questions and do well ...
CV:
Not, then other voices ... then all those who agree we again Caddy, the Caddy Report page 80, then we Gill, Whitaker, Kloosterman, Budowle, Strom, Rechitsky, I can read them all, Gaines, Leclair , Hanson, Ballantyne, Budowle, Budowle again, Smith, Ballantyne, Foster ...
CPH:
Okay, however there just because ...

Note: the quantity of sample 36(i) - which turned out to be the DNA of Amanda Knox - was 120 picograms. We can see why the Supreme Court found Vecchiotti & Conti intellectually dishonest.
 
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This is such a very important component of the whole equation (and one which, needless to say, is so often ignored within pro-guilt "arguments").

As an absolutely classic illustration of the point, one might consider the infamous "Phantom of Heilbronn" case in Germany, where police were convinced they had identified the DNA of a serial killer. The DNA of the same woman kept turning up at different crime scenes (including several murders). Mysteriously, the DNA of different (but unknown) male "accomplices" also turned up at each different crime scene. The police believed they were looking for an evil female serial criminal/killer, who had strangely employed the help of a different male accomplice on each crime.

It turned out that the woman's DNA hadn't come from the actual crime scenes at all. It was present on the cotton swabs that the police were using to gather evidence at the crime scenes. And it had been deposited there by the woman who packed the cotton swabs, by hand, at the factory where they were made.

Long before this revelation finally came to light, the police should have looked at the context, and asked themselves: what is the likelihood of there being a female serial criminal/killer working over a wide geographic area of Germany, who has a different male accomplice for each and every crime she commits? It should have been easy for them to, at the very least, question their conclusion in the light of that context, and looked for another, more rational explanation. But they forgot about context for a long time, and tied themselves into their bizarre theory (with embarrassing consequences in the long run).

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888126,00.html

In the Kercher case, the police/PM should have been asking themselves, very early on, what the likelihood was of Sollecito's kitchen knife having been involved in the murder of MezzicleBezzicle? There was the bloody imprint of a completely different knife on a bed sheet in the murder room, and all of the wounds were fully compatible with the knife which had left that imprint.

In addition, there was little or no rational reason why that knife would ever have become involved, even if Knox and Sollecito had participated. There were plenty of "suitable" knives in the cottage itself, including a brand new set of good, razor sharp knives in their original box in Knox's room in the cottage. And it would have been a spectacularly bad idea of Knox and Sollecito to bring and use a knife which, had it really been used in the murder, and had subsequently been found to have been used in the murder, would so obviously directly implicate Sollecito - and by extension, Knox (in a way that, for example, the use of a knife from the kitchen drawer in the cottage would not).

On top of all that, there is also - as you point out above - a very, very serious problem with the chain of custody of this knife, and all manner of problems with the handling, testing and analysis of this knife by the incompetent Stefanoni. All of this, put together, should have led the police and PM to look at the knife in its proper context, and should have led them to realise that, all things considered, the knife did not constitute probative evidence. But they had tunnel vision and confirmation bias, of course, so they were all too willing to tie the knife into their narrative involving "volpe cattiva" Knox and pliable Sollecito - up to and including the risibly stupid idea that multiple knives were simultaneously held to MezzaSchmezzer's throat and near-simultaneously plunged into her throat (no need to concern ourselves with the very obvious risk of the assailants injuring each other with each other's knives in such close proximity with a moving victim, of course.....).

Ultimately, of course, it was the role of the courts to assess all of this properly, in the proper context. It's now a matter of public record and Supreme Court reasoning that the Massei and Nencini courts manifestly failed to consider the knife evidence properly, within the rules laid down in the law and the code of criminal procedure. Had those courts properly assessed the knife in the proper context, they should have basically thrown it out as worthless evidence. Fortunately for justice, the Supreme Court (belatedly) righted this wrong and threw the knife out - along with every single other item of physical evidence, and every single piece of prosecution testimony - as fundamentally unreliable and devoid of credibility.

All very flowery and fanciful but any fule kno' that lab technicians and forensic police routinely test their own DNA so that they can be alerted if it were to turn up. As an example, the pathologist, Lalli and his assistants, provided their DNA to the forensic police so they could be aware of what new DNA may have been introduced to the crime scene.

So once again we see an intellectually dishonest claim that Stefanoni was unaware of self-contamination.
 
Crini questioned Vechiotti about her refusal to test sample 36(i). She tried to claim the limit was now 200 picogram when it had hitherto been 100 picograms. Crini squeezes it out of her that she was ehavily influenced by pro-Knox US scientists and Prof Peter Gill. In other words, the 1951-born coroner who had worked in autopsy and in the legal medical field all her adult life knew perfectly well what the Italian Law standards were, but corruptly tried to change them in order to fulfil the US demands to free Knox whether she was guilty or not.

The great tragedy for the Kercher family is that Marasca has reinstalled this tainted and corrupt stance of Hellmann's, predicated on Vecchiotti's bent and crooked testimony.
Crini did nothing of the sort. Vecchiotti cited professional opinion in what Crini was talking about.

Indeed, Vecchiotti was doing EXACTLY what you are not doing - citing peer reviewed, forensic DNA experts in how they interpret things.

You still have not named ONE peer reviewed expert who vouches for Stefanoni's work. You think tearing down Vecchiotti accomplished this - no it does not.

It is the height of confirmation bias to assume that just because everyone who is a professional essentially agrees with Vecchiotti's tar-down of Stefanoni's work:

to fulfil the US demands to free Knox whether she was guilty or not.​
Back up a bit - you're ignoring it and filling this thread with tripe. Back up - and name ONE expert who agrees with Stefanoni?
 
Proof that Vixen makes up stuff as she goes?

First she said it was the 2013 Italian Supreme Court which said Vecchiotti was "intellectually dishonest".

Then she defaults to "it is widely held that Vecchiotti is intellectually dishonest".

The Vixen cites Vecchiotti's appeal to other experts to show the conversation among peers, as if quoting peers is the sign of an international conspiracy!

Can't make up this kind of stuff.
 
Crini did nothing of the sort. Vecchiotti cited professional opinion in what Crini was talking about.

Indeed, Vecchiotti was doing EXACTLY what you are not doing - citing peer reviewed, forensic DNA experts in how they interpret things.

You still have not named ONE peer reviewed expert who vouches for Stefanoni's work. You think tearing down Vecchiotti accomplished this - no it does not.

It is the height of confirmation bias to assume that just because everyone who is a professional essentially agrees with Vecchiotti's tar-down of Stefanoni's work:

to fulfil the US demands to free Knox whether she was guilty or not.​
Back up a bit - you're ignoring it and filling this thread with tripe. Back up - and name ONE expert who agrees with Stefanoni?


Giddy-up. Pay attention: Novelli, Torrecelli, Balding, the courts.
 
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