Bill Williams
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I've put you down in the "I didn't like it" column.
Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23
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I've put you down in the "I didn't like it" column.
Bill Williams
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Even the prosecution expert, Novelli, said that Stefanoni's lab did not follow international protocols. Every peer-reviewed forensic-DNA expert who has commented on this case said that contamination can not be ruled out - which is, afterall, the point of following protocols.
Of course, you never cite any expert who supports Stefanoni's work in this case. You said Stefanoni had far better protocols..... ah, er, what may those have been?
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Bill Williams
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LOL. Almost missed that one.
The Netflix "commercial" was first aired 5 years after this piece was written! Hoots!
NotEvenWrong
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1) Not having a thermometer in a refrigerator does not cause false positives in DNA analysis. I can't even fathom how your brain works sometimes.
2) Anyway, despite this being completely irrelevant to forensic protocols, please provide a citation for this "lack of thermometer". I've never heard this before, which means you got it from some nutso psychopath over at TJMK or PMF. Which means it is entirely made up. And since you're not capable of vetting sources you just trot it over here like it's nothing.
She specifically says in her report that the way Stefanoni handled and analyzed the evidence was completely improper and led to contamination. Do you ever wake up in the morning and say "hey, maybe it would be a good idea to tell the truth about something today?" No, no you don't. Because the truth has no meaning for you.
Rome Forensic Laboratories presumably has more than one lab technician. I would think some of them are indeed competent.
However Mignini specifically requested Stefanoni perform the analysis. And she obviously did not know how to properly control for contamination. Especially not for LCN analysis. Because the man that INVENTED LCN analysis has a book and a peer reviewed paper in Forensic Science International: Genetics about how LCN was not done properly by Stefanoni. Your entire position has been refuted in the strongest terms possible: the founding father of modern forensic DNA testing and inventor of LCN analysis has explained in a peer reviewed paper in the top forensic science journal in the world that your entire view of the evidence in this case is completely, irrefutably wrong, and Amanda and Raffaele are innocent because there is ZERO properly collected and analyzed evidence they were involved in the murder. Thus, since we know Rudy was there and evidence of him was everywhere, we know Rudy committed the murder by himself.
LondonJohn
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Personally speaking, I (LJ) am so hopelessly biassed, ignorant and lacking in intellect that I am set to "automatically attack and defile" mode for any information or source which does not agree with my predetermined position, and I'm set to "automatically endorse and lionise" mode for all information and sources which do agree with my predetermined position. I feel this is the optimum intellectually-honest approach to adopt in any given debate. That's why I automatically defend my heroes Amanda and Raffaele, and I take every available opportunity to blindly attack everyone involved with the prosecution in this case - as well as, of course, conducting gratuitous attacks on MezzaWezza and her family. I feel this easily trumps a serious, objective analysis of the evidence, including a proper, scientific evaluation of the credibility and reliability of the evidence. It's brilliant!
LondonJohn
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As the saying goes: you couldn't make it up.
(Unless your stock-in-trade is "making it up", I suppose. Fortunately, nobody participating in the debate here falls into that category............)
NotEvenWrong
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I meant guilty or innocent in terms of "is there any actual evidence they are guilty or innocent?" Obviously.
You are correct though in a legal sense they are not the ones who find people guilty or innocent. That is for the courts to decide. And since the lower courts are only provisional and they need to be rubber stamped by the Supreme Court of Cassation, and the Supreme Court of Cassation (the highest appeals court in Italy), found Amanda and Raffaele innocent because they "did not commit the act", they are factually innocent in every way.
Have you considered taking your concerns to the Italian Supreme Court, Vixen? Maybe let them know they behaved illegally and world renowned experts like Peter Gill don't actually know that much forensic genetics. I am sure they will get around to reversing their decision that Amanda and Raffaele "did not commit the act", lol.
I was specially thinking people like Peter Gill, Greg Hampikian, and Bruce Budowle, etc. People not involved in the trial. But you are right, Conti and Vecchiotti were the COURT APPOINTED independent DNA experts. And they came to the same conclusions.
Don't know where you get this IT expert thing. They were both experts in forensic science. Hope it's not a sign you need to change your meds again.
Fine, whatever. Unfortunately the Italian Supreme Court found that the prosecution was filled with a bunch of incompetent fools who believe in pagan witch sorcery. So we can safely ignore the complaints they file. It is the Italian Supreme Court's job to decide on these complaints, and apparently the complaint was not valid. The Italian Supreme Court is the highest court in Italy. Can't you accept their decision Vixen? It is consistent with all the evidence and the interpretation of said evidence, as outlined by every independent DNA expert that has examined the case.
Or are you composing a complaint to the Supreme Court of Cassation that they were corrupt and involved in a conspiracy of the likes that we have never before seen in the history of conspiracy nutjobs, lol?
The carabinieri turned up at Vecchiotti hand over the DVD she and the defence had collaborated over. Vecchiotti ran to Hellmann to back her up. The crook was forced to issue a copy of the DVD to the prosecution. They were in the pay of the defense, they greeted the Raff defense teams with broard smiles and handshakes and were seen fraternising and dining with them during the hearing. Did you say 'INDEPENDENT'?
Hahahaha. You are right about the carabinieri "turning up" to threaten and bully Vecchiotti. Great system they have over there, Italy. Good thing the Supreme Court remedied the situation by correcting the bullying and incompetence of the carabinieri, prosecution, and lower courts. And tore them to shreds in the motivation report.
And just to correct your deliberate lie (or paranoid delusional fantasy that you actually believe, not sure which), Conti and Vecchiotti were appointed by the court as THE independent DNA experts. And they both came to the same conclusions that the evidence was collected and analyzed incorrectly and led to contamination and false positives. All of the independent experts that have analyzed the evidence after them came to the exact same conclusions. The only people who disagree are nutjobs with zero scientific knowledge on TJMK and PMF. I am siding with the forensic experts on this one. And so has everyone else. Sorry Vixen.
Methos
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Take a look here: Berti-Barni Report page 7.
The point Berti and Barni made was not that there was "no thermometer" but that Vecchiotti's fridge had no thermometer display on the outside...
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:
“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.
In other words, Conti and Vecchiotti were not referring to the specific guidelines and recommendation of one particular international forensic organisations despite giving that impression at the appeal in Perugia. They cited a number of obscure American publications such as the the Missouri State Highway Patrol Handbook and Wisconsin Crime Laboratory Physical Evidence Handbook. The Italian Scientific Police are under no obligation to follow the DNA protocols of the Missouri State Highway Patrol and Wisconsin Crime Laboratory.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Do read the Nencini report and then you can read Crini's testimony summary for yourself.
www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com
Read Chiefi to discover how and why the Conti and Vecchiotti Report is fraudulent and 'intellectually dishonest'.
We have the bizarre logic of Hellmann that Amanda’s DNA on the knife handle is ‘strong’ but ‘Mez' is ‘contaminated’.
V&C make much of US standards quoting at length from Budolwe and Gill about ‘stutter’ and false peaks when the RFU is below 50 (an arbitrary figure agreed by consensus by US standards). If one looks at Vecchiotti’s CV it is impressive and lengthy. Born 1951 and having qualified in legal medicine from college age, Vecchiotti most certainly must know that Italian Forensics do adhere to Ensfi and ISO standards. In particular, she mightly ought to know that in Italy the RFU limit is 30, not the US 50. It is academic whether one limit is superior to the other, the point is, if that is the legal standard in Italy then it is vexatious to claim that the standard should have been that of an entirely different country instead. When there is low copy number, the risk of false readings because of ‘background noise’ (which is always there in any DNA sampling’) is higher, hence this cut-off point. Often there will be fragments of random DNA which can be ignored as ‘contamination’, alien particles from elsewhere. So we see Vecchiotti leaning heavily on the ideas of US -free-Amanda Knox advocacy scientists with academic ideas, which are far removed from what is legal statute. In other words, Hellmann jumps onto idealised hypotheses that the Italian forensic police should having been aiming for an impossibly perfect evaluation, with no uncertainty and no error - in the case of Amanda and Raff, but not for Rudy, it seems - when in the real world, evidence has to be assessed on its merits within the context of all the other evidence, in a court of law and not in an ivory tower.
No valid court agrees 'Rudy did it by himself'. On the contrary.
You don't know why a thermometer is important in a DNA laboratory? You claimed to be a DNA expert t'other day. The simple answer is, DNA degrades in heat. Thus the refrigerator needs to be kept at a constant low temperature.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
I meant guilty or innocent in terms of "is there any actual evidence they are guilty or innocent?" Obviously.
You are correct though in a legal sense they are not the ones who find people guilty or innocent. That is for the courts to decide. And since the lower courts are only provisional and they need to be rubber stamped by the Supreme Court of Cassation, and the Supreme Court of Cassation (the highest appeals court in Italy), found Amanda and Raffaele innocent because they "did not commit the act", they are factually innocent in every way.
Have you considered taking your concerns to the Italian Supreme Court, Vixen? Maybe let them know they behaved illegally and world renowned experts like Peter Gill don't actually know that much forensic genetics. I am sure they will get around to reversing their decision that Amanda and Raffaele "did not commit the act", lol.
I was specially thinking people like Peter Gill, Greg Hampikian, and Bruce Budowle, etc. People not involved in the trial. But you are right, Conti and Vecchiotti were the COURT APPOINTED independent DNA experts. And they came to the same conclusions.
Don't know where you get this IT expert thing. They were both experts in forensic science. Hope it's not a sign you need to change your meds again.
Fine, whatever. Unfortunately the Italian Supreme Court found that the prosecution was filled with a bunch of incompetent fools who believe in pagan witch sorcery. So we can safely ignore the complaints they file. It is the Italian Supreme Court's job to decide on these complaints, and apparently the complaint was not valid. The Italian Supreme Court is the highest court in Italy. Can't you accept their decision Vixen? It is consistent with all the evidence and the interpretation of said evidence, as outlined by every independent DNA expert that has examined the case.
Or are you composing a complaint to the Supreme Court of Cassation that they were corrupt and involved in a conspiracy of the likes that we have never before seen in the history of conspiracy nutjobs, lol?
Hahahaha. You are right about the carabinieri "turning up" to threaten and bully Vecchiotti. Great system they have over there, Italy. Good thing the Supreme Court remedied the situation by correcting the bullying and incompetence of the carabinieri, prosecution, and lower courts. And tore them to shreds in the motivation report.
And just to correct your deliberate lie (or paranoid delusional fantasy that you actually believe, not sure which), Conti and Vecchiotti were appointed by the court as THE independent DNA experts. And they both came to the same conclusions that the evidence was collected and analyzed incorrectly and led to contamination and false positives. All of the independent experts that have analyzed the evidence after them came to the exact same conclusions. The only people who disagree are nutjobs with zero scientific knowledge on TJMK and PMF. I am siding with the forensic experts on this one. And so has everyone else. Sorry Vixen.
Freelance journalist Andrea Vogt, who reported extensively on the case, said of the Marasca reasoning: ‘In my opinion, their report is superficial at best and intellectually dishonest at worst, when even the most minimal amount of Quellenkritik is applied’.
Andrea Vogt writes an incisive analysis of the US influence on the Conti & Vecchiotti reports, which I cannot better here, so do read it for yourself: http://thefreelancedesk.com/the-secret-u-s-forensic-defense-of-amanda-knox/
However, I will repeat her prophecy, ironic in hindsight:
“If Knox is acquitted at the end of this month, the quiet American hand in her forensic defense will be heralded as the turnkey that made the ultimate difference in her case. But if she is convicted, there are legitimate questions to be asked about exactly what public resources were spent on this international defense.”
Vogt uncovered what appears to be a whole secret network that she was unable to penetrate through the fog of Freedom of Information law, which enabled Hampikian to claim ‘trade secrets’ as a project of Boise University, where his laboratory is based, to evade the question of, ‘Who was funding his Amanda Knox advocacy work?’
The defence managed to convince the now expunged Hellmann court to appoint ‘independent experts’; the Chieffi Supreme Court ruled that, whilst this was within Hellmann’s remit, it did not provide adequate reasoning for doing so. Vecchiotti & Conti, remarkably, in their report, relied heavily on US standards, thus making the straw man claim that Italy hadn’t followed them, notwithstanding their strong academic and legal background in Italy. This therefore cannot have been due to ignorance, so we have to point to their own volition to be influenced by strongly Knox-advocates. For example, Hampikian, funded by Boise University grants and protected by a blanket of secrecy, citing ‘trade secrets’ when journalist Andrea Vogt requested information under the Freedom of Information statutes.
In addition, Bruce Budowle, a more conservative ex-FBI forensic expert, was heavily relied upon, together with peers Gill, et al. It was at this stage Gill may have got roped in. His later book draws on Vecchiotti &Conti’s Hellmann’s Report. Thus, we see a band of pro-Amanda Knox advocates determined to influence the so-called ‘independent’ experts, even when both Hampikian’s and Budowle’s reports were rejected as depositions by the courts. Even when ‘the experts’ were spiked by the Chieffi Supreme court, Hampikian was still averring, ‘I am involved in the Amanda Knox case’.
Friends of Amanda Knox even today lovingly quote Hellmann despite his de facto ex-communication from the judiciary.
On the subject of Dr Peter Gill, who is widely regarded as having influenced the Fifth Chambers, via Bongiorno’s Appeal, to which his theories were attached, is now drawing on Vecchiotti and Conti as his main source, so we have a case of the snakeoil slithering over the salesman, referred to devoutly by the defence, as ‘the father of forensic science’.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Right. You are simply making it up.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
It's my opinion. Wasn't that obvious?
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Yup. And thus worthless.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Let's see: your assumptions so far have been completely wrong.
Your assumptions are worthless.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
How exactly did you get your fingerprints on your passport?
You have few routes for that to happen.
Pick one.
This is but a twig on the tracks ahead of a veritable psychotic freight train of an argument. Expecting even a delay - much less a derailment - will be in vain.
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Bill Williams
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What a load of hooey. Indeed, given that you summarize Hellmann's "logic" as "Amanda’s DNA on the knife handle is ‘strong’ but ‘Mez' is ‘contaminated’."..... that was not his logic at all.
You should at least quote the relevant section of Hellmann's motivations report before misrepresenting it.
The rest is hooey. The real problem is that your source is the fake wiki assembled by the TJMK and PMF nut jobs.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Did you not see the Netflix film? Vecchiotti, on whose premises Hellmann wrote his half-baked drivel, made this ridiculous and dishonest claim.
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