China Flexes Military Muscle

[Jules Galen]

China's J-20 stealth fighter made it's debut yesterday. Many people compare it to the F-22 and F-35 mission-wise, but it's obvious it's mission is something else altogether. A PLA general came close to revealing one of the J-20's missions when he stated that it would "Kick the Door in".

http://www.china-arms.com/2014/10/c...-than-su-30-and-f-15-j-20-will-kick-the-door/

After reading this, it's mission becomes quite apparent and fits it's specs. The J-20 - I believe - will lead planes like the J-11 and J-15 (both are modernized SU-27 varients) into battle with potential stealth fighters and enable them to get close enough where stealth no longer matters and the J-11s and J-15s have the manueverability, fuel and and weapons load advantage. This could be bad.

The F-22 would stand to do well in such a fight. The F-35 would get wasted.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...th-fighter-looks-dangerous-can-it-crush-18264

Meanwhile, China boasts of the J-20's capability when coupled with it's new air-to-air missiles:

People’s Daily Web reported that some overseas media said China is busy with testing the latest PL-13 air-to-air missile on J-20 stealth fighter, which would be a serious threat to America’s F-22 fighter.

Chinese military expert Li Li said in an interview that no fighter would be able to escape from such attack from J-20 with PL-13 missiles under the assistance of early warning aircraft.

http://www.china-arms.com/2015/03/c...escape-from-j-20-fighter-with-pl-13-missiles/

Hmmm....they sure seem confident. Time will tell.

 

[Seismosaurus]

That rather depends on how stealthy the J-20 is. And how good the sensors and weapons are. And how good the pilots are. And how good the maintenance is.

All things that thee and me are unlikely to find out anytime soon, yes?

 

[Jules Galen]

That rather depends on how stealthy the J-20 is. And how good the sensors and weapons are. And how good the pilots are. And how good the maintenance is.

All things that thee and me are unlikely to find out anytime soon, yes?

It's stealthy enough to get inside the F-22's x-band BVR envelope.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html

I read where the Chinese envision the J-20 coupled with an AWACs oberating on the low-frequency L-band. The AWACs would acquire the enemy fighter and direct a specific friendly fighter to release a missile. The AWACs would then guide this missile to target - the endgame being where the missile goes fully active once inside the enemy stealth's burn-through, x-band range.

 

[Seismosaurus]

It's stealthy enough to get inside the F-22's x-band BVR envelope.

I find that unlikely myself. Trusting public sources on such things is the sign of a trusting personality, and I am a cynic.

I read where the Chinese envision the J-20 coupled with an AWACs oberating on the low-frequency L-band. The AWACs would acquire the enemy fighter and direct a specific friendly fighter to release a missile. The AWACs would then guide this missile to target - the endgame being where the missile goes fully active once inside the enemy stealth's burn-through, x-band range.

Yes, networking systems together so that one platform can guide missiles launched by another is the up and coming thing. It's one of the things the F-35 is supposed to be superb at. Envisioning it is a long way from achieving it, though.

 

[Jules Galen]

I find that unlikely myself. Trusting public sources on such things is the sign of a trusting personality, and I am a cynic.

Yes, networking systems together so that one platform can guide missiles launched by another is the up and coming thing. It's one of the things the F-35 is supposed to be superb at. Envisioning it is a long way from achieving it, though.

So...you trust the likes of Lockheed and the US Air Force who gave us the F-22 and F-35 Boondoggles and the $2 Billion Dollar Stealth bomber. And of course, let's not forget the F-117 Stealth Fighter which was shot down by a bunch of Serbian farmers with an ancient SA-3 System.

 

[Seismosaurus]

So...you trust the likes of Lockheed and the US Air Force who gave us the F-22 and F-35 Boondoggles and the $2 Billion Dollar Stealth bomber.

Did I say that? I did not. Please do not invent opinions and attribute them to me. It's dishonest and makes you look like a dick.

And of course, let's not forget the F-117 Stealth Fighter which was shot down by a bunch of Serbian farmers with an ancient SA-3 System.

Yes, one was shot down. Out of hundreds or even thousands of combat missions, a single aircraft was shot down, in large part thanks to poor planning (pilots sent on the same routes night after night) and an intelligence coup (Serbs intercepting and decoding signals).

All of which allowed them to be in the right place to detect the aircraft when it opened its bomb bays, thus seriously degrading the stealth characteristics.

(This is why F-22 bay doors open, launch the missile, and close again in less than a second.)

Of course nobody ever claimed the F-117 was indestructible or invincible. It was merely very, very very good, as its combat record record shows.

 

[Jules Galen]

Did I say that? I did not. Please do not invent opinions and attribute them to me. It's dishonest and makes you look like a dick.


Yes, one was shot down. Out of hundreds or even thousands of combat missions, a single aircraft was shot down, in large part thanks to poor planning (pilots sent on the same routes night after night) and an intelligence coup (Serbs intercepting and decoding signals). All of which allowed them to be in the right place to detect the aircraft when it opened its bomb bays, thus seriously degrading the stealth characteristics.
(This is why F-22 bay doors open, launch the missile, and close again in less than a second.)

Of course nobody ever claimed the F-117 was indestructible or invincible. It was merely very, very very good, as its combat record record shows.

Baloney. You are making stuff up. You don't have a shred of proof.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Everything I said re the shoot down of the F-117 by the Serbs is a matter of public record. There's even a wikipedia article about it with sources and everything.

Of course, me being a cynic, I am open to the possibility that said sources are mistaken. Maybe the Serbs did have some kind of James Bond wunderweapon hidden. Or maybe the F-117 really was a piece of crap, and all those hundreds and hundreds of sorties flown in combat without a scratch were just... what? Luck?

But you seem to put a lot of stock in public record defence info. When it supports China, anyway.

 

[Jules Galen]

Everything I said re the shoot down of the F-117 by the Serbs is a matter of public record. There's even a wikipedia article about it with sources and everything.
Of course, me being a cynic, I am open to the possibility that said sources are mistaken. Maybe the Serbs did have some kind of James Bond wunderweapon hidden. Or maybe the F-117 really was a piece of crap, and all those hundreds and hundreds of sorties flown in combat without a scratch were just... what? Luck?

But you seem to put a lot of stock in public record defence info. When it supports China, anyway.

Baloney! I've checked those sources...they stink!

What? Are you too lazy to check the so-called facts?

But you seem to put a lot of stock in public record defence info. When it supports China, anyway.

I used one off-hand quote from a Chinese general that had nothing to do with Aircraft Performance of Specs. Then, I made a speculative deduction based on the quote. And you say I rely on Chinese info? What info are you talking about? What are you talking about?

 

[Seismosaurus]

I did, mate. Not my fault if you don't like what I found.

But as it's late here I am off to bed now. Back in the morning. Night night! Sleep tight! Don't let the F-35s bite!

 

[Jules Galen]

I did, mate. Not my fault if you don't like what I found.

But as it's late here I am off to bed now. Back in the morning. Night night! Sleep tight! Don't let the F-35s bite!

Of course you are! You're running away from a losing position! C'mon...admit that you were wrong!

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

So...you trust the likes of Lockheed and the US Air Force who gave us the F-22 and F-35 Boondoggles and the $2 Billion Dollar Stealth bomber. And of course, let's not forget the F-117 Stealth Fighter which was shot down by a bunch of Serbian farmers with an ancient SA-3 System.

Perfect Rule Of So for the birdwatchers. He said no such thing.

 

[Jules Galen]

Perfect Rule Of So for the birdwatchers. He said no such thing.

No...he did worse. He trusted a stupid Wiki Entry written by a bunch of Airpower Fanboyz. I initially gave him too much credit for good sense.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

You have way more emotional investment in this topic than anyone else here. I hope you realize that.

It leads you to apply false ideas to other people's words. It makes you, not them, look foolish, illogical and irrational.

 

[Jules Galen]

You have way more emotional investment in this topic than anyone else here. I hope you realize that.

It leads you to apply false ideas to other people's words. It makes you, not them, look foolish, illogical and irrational.

Blah Blah Blah. You are making no sense.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

In other words, I'm not playing your little game so you stomp your little feet and pout.

Typical JG thread then.

 

[theprestige]

It's stealthy enough to get inside the F-22's x-band BVR envelope.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html

I read where the Chinese envision the J-20 coupled with an AWACs oberating on the low-frequency L-band. The AWACs would acquire the enemy fighter and direct a specific friendly fighter to release a missile. The AWACs would then guide this missile to target - the endgame being where the missile goes fully active once inside the enemy stealth's burn-through, x-band range.

I doubt the J-20 is going to go up against the F-22 anytime soon. The F-22 was designed for a peer adversary in Europe, that in the end failed to materialize.

The J-20's real problem is the USN's AWACS and Aegis. Maybe--maybe!--if (big if) the J-20's training and maintenance is on par with the USN, the J-20 will be on par with the F-35 in a straight-up dogfight. What remains to be seen is when China will actually be capable of fielding an integrated naval air combat system to rival the USN.

The F-35 doesn't fight alone.

Also, is it just me, or is all this PLAN shilling starting to sound like Trump on the campaign trail? The Chinese have the best planes, the very best. Etc.

ETA: It's like the Elon Musk diatribes all over again. I used to worry that China might be a problem. The more Jules rants, the more I'm thinking maybe China is a paper tiger after all.

 

[theprestige]

Wait, hold on.

"China Flexes Military Muscle"?

China puts on an air show, and that's what passes for flexing military muscle? Yeah, no. Flexing military muscle would be actually projecting force into a contested region. Or rendering a region uncontested by virtue of projecting overwhelming force there.

Showing off a fancy new prototype isn't flexing military muscle. Parades are not field operations.

 

[catsmate]

That rather depends on how stealthy the J-20 is. And how good the sensors and weapons are. And how good the pilots are. And how good the maintenance is.

All things that thee and me are unlikely to find out anytime soon, yes?

Exactly. Given the troubles the PLAAF has had with it's engines expect major serviceability issues, when the aircraft actually enter service.

 

[catsmate]

It's stealthy enough to get inside the F-22's x-band BVR envelope.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html

I read where the Chinese envision the J-20 coupled with an AWACs oberating on the low-frequency L-band. The AWACs would acquire the enemy fighter and direct a specific friendly fighter to release a missile. The AWACs would then guide this missile to target - the endgame being where the missile goes fully active once inside the enemy stealth's burn-through, x-band range.

That's not a new tactic. The USN was using it in the F-14 days with Phoenix.