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Split Thread Western culture, values and race

You claim it is silly and then yourself go on to say there are "changes and improvements" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.

The environment that allows for changes and improvements is itself an important attribute.

Part of that involves de-emphasising religion, making it more of a personal issue. Also emphasizing personal freedoms and choice, encouraging societal self-criticism. Fostering multiculturalism.
 
If you had just said you didn't understand it in the first place... there is nothing wrong with not understanding something you know? Much better to ask for an explanation then create silly strawmen.

I'll unpack it for you:

You posted: As long as western culture and values remain, who cares about colour? Why is it such a big issue in the first place?

My first comment was:

"Who cares about culture and values longterm?"

This was in reference to your post and the ongoing discussion, so it was a comment on Skeptic Tank's concerns about values won't be same a 100, 200 years from now. And my question was questioning whether any of us are really bothered about values and so on longterm i.e. outside our and probably children's lifetimes?

My second sentence was:

"Thankfully the current culture of my society has very different values to that of my grandparents."

Here I was introducing the idea that your idea of "western values" is not a fixed point, my grandparents like me were born into a culture that had "western values" yet I am profoundly grateful that I wasn't born into their society of "western values". If you would like some examples, when my grandparents were born there was not universal suffrage for men nor women, women could not obtain a divorce without the husband's permission, there was no universal healthcare.

And I suspect from the viewpoint of my younger relatives they are profoundly grateful that they are not living in the "western value" based society I was born into. The society/culture I was born into had all abortions illegal, no equal rights, the Lord Chamberlain was still licensing theatre productions and could refuse a licence for any production if "it is fitting for the preservation of good manners, decorum or of the public peace so to do"!

Wanting a society to keep to "western values" really means nothing as they have always been changing.

And my final statement was "Even if the "whites " remain a majority the values of societies a 100 years from now will be very different."

By that I was meaning it doesn't matter if the "whites" (I used quotation marks to make it obvious I was using the word in an unusual sense as I am again - I thought the context would make it clear that it was Skeptic Tank's strange and irrational definition I was referring to) remain a majority or not our society and our values and principles will have changed in a 100 years, probably in ways none of us can predict.

Change is inherent in all value systems, even those claiming consistency over centuries i.e. the RCC.

That's all well and nice but I still don't see why you think I didn't understand it on the first go. The core of "Western civilisation" hasn't changed that much.
 
Which of course has nothing to do with you criticizing me for the very thing you then claim happens and has happened!

I'm criticizing your comment of:

Wanting a society to keep to "western values" really means nothing as they have always been changing

As relatively small changes to the large body of Western civilization does not mean that there is no cultural continuity.
 
I'm criticizing your comment of:



As relatively small changes to the large body of Western civilization does not mean that there is no cultural continuity.
As above, universal suffrage is only a small change?
 
Perhaps the disconnect is that you don't know what I mean by Western Civilisation, but somehow I doubt it.

You are now as they say "moving the goal posts", your original claim was to quote your good self "As long as western culture and values remain, who cares about colour? Why is it such a big issue in the first place?"

Now I will accept that my grandparents and myself were born into a "western civilisation" - after all that is just a descriptor for certain countries. But that wasn't what you originally posted. And as I have shown the the "western values" you originally mentioned have changed enormously over the time since my grandparents times.

I find your idea that there are set "western culture and values" to be unfounded. To accept it as a fact means ignoring the evidence of history and even very recent history.
 
You are now as they say "moving the goal posts", your original claim was to quote your good self "As long as western culture and values remain, who cares about colour? Why is it such a big issue in the first place?"

How have I moved the goal posts?

Now I will accept that my grandparents and myself were born into a "western civilisation" - after all that is just a descriptor for certain countries. But that wasn't what you originally posted. And as I have shown the the "western values" you originally mentioned have changed enormously over the time since my grandparents times.

But they're based on different traditions than, say, values in the arab world or in China. There's a quality to each culture that is different from the others. In my opinion, of course.

I find your idea that there are set "western culture and values" to be unfounded.

That's fine by me, but I'd prefer if you cut on the sarcasm a bit.
 
How have I moved the goal posts?

Western Civilisation is simply a label that tells us nothing about the values of any particular culture. ( To remind you - you originally started by talking about "western [..] values")

But they're based on different traditions than, say, values in the arab world or in China. There's a quality to each culture that is different from the others. In my opinion, of course. ...snip...

There are no "western values" that I bet you can find that 1) are consistent across all "western civilisations" even today and 2) that have remained consistent and constant over the lifetime of two generations i.e the 100 years mentioned at the start.
 
You are now as they say "moving the goal posts", your original claim was to quote your good self "As long as western culture and values remain, who cares about colour? Why is it such a big issue in the first place?"

Now I will accept that my grandparents and myself were born into a "western civilisation" - after all that is just a descriptor for certain countries. But that wasn't what you originally posted. And as I have shown the the "western values" you originally mentioned have changed enormously over the time since my grandparents times.

I find your idea that there are set "western culture and values" to be unfounded. To accept it as a fact means ignoring the evidence of history and even very recent history.

Yeah, when the great reform act of 1832 was passed, people woke up the next morning and - confronted by an increase in the franchise - literally didn't recognize their own culture. I think they all started speaking Chinese and applying Toltec philosophies. This happened again whenever any legislation of note was passed. I guess it was random that after the most recent legislation we happened to all speak English again and applying common law, giving me the false impression that there had been some kind of continuity and evolution rather than a series of complete breaks (for example, when the NHS was introduced and the culture changed beyond recognition ).
 
Western Civilisation is simply a label that tells us nothing about the values of any particular culture. ( To remind you - you originally started by talking about "western [..] values")

Again, to me those are one and the same. How have I moved the goalposts?
 
Yeah, when the great reform act of 1832 was passed, people woke up the next morning and - confronted by an increase in the franchise - literally didn't recognize their own culture. I think they all started speaking Chinese and applying Toltec philosophies. This happened again whenever any legislation of note was passed. I guess it was random that after the most recent legislation we happened to all speak English again and applying common law, giving me the false impression that there had been some kind of continuity and evolution rather than a series of complete breaks (for example, when the NHS was introduced and the culture changed beyond recognition ).
I take it then your position is that universal suffrage is insignificant, or that you don't think it is part of "western values".
 
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Again, to me those are one and the same. How have I moved the goalposts?
Because as I have explained they are not the same thing.

If you want to claim they are the same thing them you will need to address the part of my post that covered that point.
 
Because as I have explained they are not the same thing.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I guess. See the article I linked to.

Which part of that answers the question you were asked?

The first sentence of the article. It equates western culture with western civilisation and mentions that it's composed of values, among other things.
 

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