Going to a psychic medium party

[Hokulele]

I have actually had some personal psychic perceptions, and although I did not develop as a medium I did have some evidential experiences. Here is one.

I was moaning to myself about having no money for a computer in 1998 and a female voice said in my head "help is coming from an unexpected source"
Later that week I felt a presence when I was picking the lottery numbers, and I felt guided to certain numbers. One hour before the lottery was drawn I picked up the ticket and said to myself maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then though no and threw it down. At that moment the same female voice I had heard before said " You won".
The lottery was drawn an hour later and I won five numbers. I had never heard that voice before and have never heard it since, so the only time I did win the lottery I was told I would.
I won just enough money to buy a good computer and pay off my credit card.
I have tried to get the lady in my head to give me a big win, but in my heart I know she never will because that would be bad karma.
Incidentally if I am right and a spirit told me I would win the lottery it is evidence they can see into the future.

How many times have you felt guided to certain numbers, and certain you would win, and you didn't?

 

[Garrette]

I have actually had some personal psychic perceptions, and although I did not develop as a medium I did have some evidential experiences. Here is one.

I was moaning to myself about having no money for a computer in 1998 and a female voice said in my head "help is coming from an unexpected source"
Later that week I felt a presence when I was picking the lottery numbers, and I felt guided to certain numbers. One hour before the lottery was drawn I picked up the ticket and said to myself maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then though no and threw it down. At that moment the same female voice I had heard before said " You won".
The lottery was drawn an hour later and I won five numbers. I had never heard that voice before and have never heard it since, so the only time I did win the lottery I was told I would.
I won just enough money to buy a good computer and pay off my credit card.
I have tried to get the lady in my head to give me a big win, but in my heart I know she never will because that would be bad karma.
Incidentally if I am right and a spirit told me I would win the lottery it is evidence they can see into the future.

I might be inclined to discuss the weaknesses in this anecdote as evidence if I had reason to think there would be some acknowledgment of those weaknesses. My preference is to deal with the story you brought up as convincing (for yourself; I know you said you can't expect it to convince us).

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I suggest you read, 'The teachings of Silver Birch'.

So to prove to me that no medium is in it for the money, you point me towards a book about a medium who made his living through spiritualism and writing about spiritualism?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Incidentally if I am right and a spirit told me I would win the lottery it is evidence they can see into the future.

If you're not it's evidence of confirmation bias. Which is more likely, do you think?

 

[Garrette]

Sorry. I missed this because, as you said, the quote boxes were messed up. I've fixed them here:

How do you distinguish them from the real ones?

Its a whole package. Fake mediums are vague and inconclusive, and they pump you for information, and charge money for their services.
I know I was taken for a ride by a so called psychic artist called Ivor Mariants
Because he drew a picture of a man and said it was my Japanese spirit guide.
He wrote some characters on it that were supposed to be a message in Japanese. But I took it to the Japanese embassy and asked them to translate it for me and they said it was fake writing.
I also paid another so called psychic artist called Coral Polge and I went to her three times. Each time she drew someone I did not recognise so I gave up trying to get evidence from her.

1. Pumping for information is only one method, not all. You are still ignoring the Psychic Mafia thing that is perfectly set up in the environment you have described.

2. It is far easier to pump someone for information without them realizing it than you seem to think, particularly for those who are practiced at it.

3. Your anecdote about Ivor Mariants is the perfect example of your bias and wrong-way approach to analysis. You believed until disproven. Sorry to say this, but you are the near-perfect mark.

4. Ditto with Coral Polge. You went three times. If she had presented something the third time you would have accepted it as evidence while completely discounting the possibility of her doing some research on you in the mean time. You are setting yourself up to be fooled. You may discount the least skilled frauds on the fringes but only after you give them every chance to succeed and only at the cost of accepting those with slightly more skill.

How do you distinguish those times from the ones you weren't fooled?

By the logic of what was said. I quote the case of my brother because I believe that was an example of a genuine medium.

Logic does not support your case. You are in fact saying “I decide who is legitimate based on exactly the same faulty thinking that allows fake psychics to continue operating.”

The case of your brother has been shown to be full of holes and not in the least convincing. Perhaps that medium was legitimate, but there is nothing – and I mean absolutely nothing – that you have posted here that lends itself to that conclusion.

How did you determine that (a) the churches are run by legitimate psychics, and (b) that genuine psychics would not ask a fake medium to come back?

I have not only attended spiritualist churches but gone behind the scenes and got involved in their activities. I sat in two psychic developing circles myself and one was run by a friend of mine who developed into a medium in front of my eyes. His name was Trevor Williams, and as far as I know he is still a practicing medium forty years later.

This does not answer the question in the slightest. In fact, it reinforces the idea of the Psychic Mafia operating quite nicely around you. Whether your friend Trevor is an active part of that, I do not know, but I suspect that even if he is not intending to, he is an unwitting accomplice in your deception.

It is precisely as if you have joined a club of magicians with links to other clubs, and they have shown you how the tricks in the cheap set for children work. You are thinking that this superficial knowledge is sufficient to conclude that the professional is using supernatural forces to produce a full glass of water from under a handkerchief.

I messed up the quote box, but I think its clear I am answering Garrette's questions

It happens. Again, sorry I missed it the first time around.

 

[Garrette]

The situation in regard to your own church:

• You attend regularly, so they know you

• It is run by alleged psychics who know you

• The alleged psychics regularly bring in alleged mediums who have contact with the alleged psychics who know you

The situation in regard to spiritualist churches:

• You have attended multiple times

• Your friend who knows you well is part of the spiritualist church circuit

• You have been behind the scenes so more than just your friend know you

The situation in regard to how you approach psychic/medium readings:

• You believe until it is positively proven otherwise that the medium is a fraud

• You return repeatedly to the same psychic

In short, as I have said: You are operating in the perfect environment and in the perfect manner in which to be fooled.

 

[stanfr]

When I remember exactly what was said I use quotation marks, but I cannot always remember exact words so I explained that when I was discussing what the medium said about hospital equipment. I am sure she said "equipment", because when I recounted that to my mother on the same evening she piped in that it was because there were no oxygen tents.

Im a bit late, and Garrette and others have already addressed my concerns with your response....I'll just add that I find it a bit convenient and unfortunate that you "don't remember" the details of an anecdote you claim to be the strongest personal evidence you've received from mediums. I can't imagine why you wouldn't have written it down right after the event.
And as Garrette pointed out, 'equipment' is a very vague term, could be anything from a scalpel to an ambulance. Oxygen tents are pretty prominent objects, very distinctive. You'd think someone with such a remarkable insight would have been able to describe to you an oxygen tent...unless, of course, they were cold-reading.

 

[Scorpion]

How many times have you felt guided to certain numbers, and certain you would win, and you didn't?

I only heard that voice tell me I had won on the one occasion in all the years I have been doing the lottery. That is the occasion I did win. I think the spirit world wanted me to have a computer so they cheated fate and helped me win money for one. That was evidence to me and me alone, but it reassured me there is a spirit world. I am sure they will never give me a big win because that would be bad karma, but they allowed me a win when I needed it most.

The odds against a five number win were 55,000 to 1 and the odds against a voice telling you, you won on the only occasion you did win must be astronomical.

 

[Scorpion]

So to prove to me that no medium is in it for the money, you point me towards a book about a medium who made his living through spiritualism and writing about spiritualism?

He may have made money out of the book, but if you read it you will discover that Silver Birch says if anything he said goes against your reason then reject it. Most mediums who circulate the churches do not get any money except for travelling expenses. I think they do this every week out of a sense of moral duty.

 

[Scorpion]

If you're not it's evidence of confirmation bias. Which is more likely, do you think?

Unlikely as it may seem, I think some spirits can see into the future. But not the recently departed , only higher spirits. I suspect I was allowed special dispensation from on high to win that money, because my dead relatives would not be likely to have developed enough to see into the future for me.

I think the spirit world wanted me to have a computer to do precisely what I am doing, and have been doing on different forums for over a decade. Which is writing about my experiences and beliefs.

 

[Scorpion]

I know this is a sceptics forum, and that means most of you do not believe there are any genuine mediums, and you do not believe we survive death and go to a spirit world.
So naturally you ascribe devious motives to all so called mediums. But this has not been my experience over the many years I attended church services and trance lectures.

 

[Garrette]

I know this is a sceptics forum, and that means most of you do not believe there are any genuine mediums, and you do not believe we survive death and go to a spirit world.
So naturally you ascribe devious motives to all so called mediums. But this has not been my experience over the many years I attended church services and trance lectures.

Try reversing this to see how it fits:

I know you are a believer, and that means you believe in genuine mediums, and you believe we survive death and go to a spirit world. So naturally you ascribe pure motives to all mediums. But this has not been my experience over the many years I have reviewed how people can intentionally and unintentionally fool both themselves and others.

First, the after life claim is irrelevant to whether or not your experience is sufficient to justify belief in the legitimacy of a specific medium, so please don't bring it in here now as some sort of attempt to imply we are closed minded; we are not.

Second, whether we are biased or not is irrelevant unless you accept that you, too, are biased.

Third, the only bit that matters is whether or not the claim is supported. You may suggest that supporting it is not relevant, but you came to this thread and this forum knowing that is the standard, and you came here claiming that your experience actually is supportive of genuine mediumship in an evidentiary sense.

Fourth, you seem to have some difficulty addressing the comments that show the weakness in your claims.

So, no, your all-too-typical swipe at closed-minded skeptics is as empty as all the others who make similar statements when unable to actually defend their claims.

 

[Garrette]

He may have made money out of the book, but if you read it you will discover that Silver Birch says if anything he said goes against your reason then reject it. Most mediums who circulate the churches do not get any money except for travelling expenses. I think they do this every week out of a sense of moral duty.

Why do you doubt the marketing skills of such a person?

Unlikely as it may seem, I think some spirits can see into the future. But not the recently departed , only higher spirits. I suspect I was allowed special dispensation from on high to win that money, because my dead relatives would not be likely to have developed enough to see into the future for me.

Even if you proved that mediumship itself exists, all of this is pure speculation without substance at all. And you have not remotely begun to establish mediumship at all.

I think the spirit world wanted me to have a computer to do precisely what I am doing, and have been doing on different forums for over a decade. Which is writing about my experiences and beliefs.

More supposition without substance, but I am interested in why the spirit world would want you to come to a skeptics forum in order to present anecdotes that prove nothing? Perhaps if the spirits really wanted this they would kindly present you with proof first.

 

[Scorpion]

You can recount all the anecdotes you like, Scorpion, they remain inadequate to reach a reliable conclusion. There's a reason why the scientific method had to be invented. As long as mediums continue to fail every test conducted using it there is only one rational conclusion.

There is also the theological point of view that spiritualists teach, which is we are incarnate for experience sake, and we learn by trial and error over many lifetimes of reincarnation and karma. We are not meant to see behind the veil as a matter of course, so the spirit world deliberately withholds absolute proof of their existence. Because the human race is not evolved enough to know. Worldly men would seize on occult knowledge for their own ends and the world would be a worse place than it is now, with warlocks enslaving peoples minds. There would be more men trying to stare at goats and kill them as a prelude to using psychic energy to kill people.
But some people are naturally psychic, and they are able to give subjective evidence of survival to the bereaved, and healing to the sick.

My anecdotes are no evidence to you, but if you spent as long as I have in a sincere effort to learn if there is a spirit world from mediums you might find you too would get subjective evidence that might convince you the spirit world exists.

 

[Scorpion]

Garrette, I think the spirit world wants me to do what I am doing all over the internet, not just on this forum. I spent much of the last ten years criticising the Quran on several forums under the name Dajjal, because I think Muhammad was a false prophet. I even went on a Sunni forum using the name scorpion, and survived there questioning the Quran, without getting banned. I even went on a north Korean forum for a while.

 

[Garrette]

There is also the theological point of view that spiritualists teach, which is we are incarnate for experience sake, and we learn by trial and error over many lifetimes of reincarnation and karma. We are not meant to see behind the veil as a matter of course, so the spirit world deliberately withholds absolute proof of their existence. Because the human race is not evolved enough to know. Worldly men would seize on occult knowledge for their own ends and the world would be a worse place than it is now, with warlocks enslaving peoples minds. There would be more men trying to stare at goats and kill them as a prelude to using psychic energy to kill people.

All such men but those like you, you mean? The feeling of being special must be intense indeed.

But some people are naturally psychic,

This is the part that needs support in this thread. Support that you have failed to provide, and it is not a matter of our insufficiency but rather the insufficiency of the claimed evidence.

and they are able to give subjective evidence of survival to the bereaved, and healing to the sick.

Subjective, yes. Subjective to the point of not being there. And the "healing to the sick" part is yet another claim which is lacking entirely in regard to valid evidence.

My anecdotes are no evidence to you, but if you spent as long as I have in a sincere effort to learn if there is a spirit world from mediums you might find you too would get subjective evidence that might convince you the spirit world exists.

If you addressed the actual objections to your anecdotes I might give more credence to your claim about a sincere effort to learn, but you studiously do not.

And I do not accept that your experience is objectively greater than all of us here. There are hundreds if not thousands of people who spend lifetimes in a search for free energy (perpetual motion machines, etc.), yet it does not take a life time to refute them. It does, of course, take expertise in the relevant fields, which is what those who refute such things have, and I will gladly stack my expertise in your spiritualist field up against yours. Not by engaging in a trivia contest, but by discussing the facts and the methods.

Or you could turn your statement around. If you spent as long as I have in a sincere effort to learn how frauds convince you they are legitimate you might find you too might find objective evidence that the spirit world you believe in is not real.

 

[Garrette]

Garrette, I think the spirit world wants me to do what I am doing all over the internet, not just on this forum. I spent much of the last ten years criticising the Quran on several forums under the name Dajjal, because I think Muhammad was a false prophet. I even went on a Sunni forum using the name scorpion, and survived there questioning the Quran, without getting banned. I even went on a north Korean forum for a while.

1. Why wouldn't the spirits want you to have real evidence on other forums, too?

2. How do you know Muhammad was a false prophet?

 

[Scorpion]

1. Why wouldn't the spirits want you to have real evidence on other forums, too?

2. How do you know Muhammad was a false prophet?

As you say there is no scientific irrefutable evidence, not of there being a spirit world or there being a God. Never the less countless people think there is a God because they feel it in their hearts. I am simply trying to establish what the truth really is.

I read the Quran shortly after 9/11 because I wanted to understand the motivations of the Muslim suicide attackers. I soon found the Quran a dubious work, for one thing it paints a terrible picture of hell for unbelievers, even worse than the bible. It even says Gods curse is upon unbelievers. It goes entirely against everything I ever learned in spiritualism.
There are many more things wrong with the Quran but that's a thread in itself.

 

[Garrette]

As you say there is no scientific irrefutable evidence, not of there being a spirit world or there being a God. Never the less countless people think there is a God because they feel it in their hearts. I am simply trying to establish what the truth really is.

It is not just that there is no irrefutable evidence, it is that those things offered as evidence simply do not withstand scrutiny. Countless people believing is not evidence, regardless what is felt in their hearts (a rather meaningless phrase when we are speaking of evidence).

Trying to establish what the truth is (I think you mean "discover" and not "establish") is fine, and no one -- not even those on this thread -- would expect perfection in that endeavor, but your anecdotes do not indicate that this is your goal. Rather, you appear to have decided what you wish the truth to be and are accepting those things that appear to support your wish while discarding those that do not.

I read the Quran shortly after 9/11 because I wanted to understand the motivations of the Muslim suicide attackers. I soon found the Quran a dubious work, for one thing it paints a terrible picture of hell for unbelievers, even worse than the bible. It even says Gods curse is upon unbelievers. It goes entirely against everything I ever learned in spiritualism.
There are many more things wrong with the Quran but that's a thread in itself.

Allow me to rephrase: By what criteria that does not also apply to other religions did you conclude that Muhammad is a false prophet?

(And I have read it, too, and I have a copy of the Hadith on my bookshelf along with other works on Islam and Christianity and other religions).

 

[Scorpion]

I regard the bible as largely fiction, made up by Jewish scribes to promote their own tribe.
So the first thing I noticed in the Quran is that it copies the bible stories as if they were literal truths. Since I do not believe in Jonah and the whale, and Noah's ark, I concluded that Muhammad stole most of his material from the bible. He then repeats references to bible characters over and over again. He also makes personal issues out of things like how to behave in his tent, and so on. Not a message from God, would you believe.
It also has ridiculous things like talking ants, and the stars are missiles to throw at devils.