How to fix black America?

Argumemnon said:
I'll repeat what I said earlier: normally the "cure" for poverty is education. However in this case, access to education doesn't seem to help all that much. Perhaps there's a cultural element in a lot of those communities that counters this, for instance.
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"access to education" actually tends to be limited, actually. Discrimination leads to poorer outcomes even in the same classes, classes like AP courses, music, sciences with labs, etc. Also, there's a bad tendency to oversuspend black students, which leads to lower graduation rates.
 
Argumemnon said:
Ok I will clarify: what do you do with the money? Do you spend it on infrastructure, or do you just give it to them, or what? Giving people money doesn't really remove them from poverty unless you give them a lot of money regularily. So what's your solution, exactly?



I'll repeat what I said earlier: normally the "cure" for poverty is education. However in this case, access to education doesn't seem to help all that much. Perhaps there's a cultural element in a lot of those communities that counters this, for instance.
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Have you any evidence for your contention that education (in a country like the USA and the UK)?

The reason for asking is that to take my own country (the UK) for example we have had compulsory good free education for generations and yet still the best indicator of your own wealth is the wealth of the family you are lucky or unlucky to be born into.
 
Darat said:
You've lost the thread if the discussion, no where have I said or even implied it is only poverty that is my concern. Indeed I've not even said I'm concerned about poverty!
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My previous question went unanswered. If you think I'm not following the discussion, perhaps the reason is because you aren't making it easy to follow.
 
Argumemnon said:
Well, poverty is positively correlated with crime. If you want to fix crime, it's usually a good idea to reduce poverty.
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Given that correlation != causation, why is there any reason to believe that simply giving people enough money that they no longer qualify as "poor" will actually affect crime to any significant degree?
 
Ziggurat said:
My previous question went unanswered. If you think I'm not following the discussion, perhaps the reason is because you aren't making it easy to follow.
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Nope you asked me about something I haven't posted. Now I have to assume you knew it was a strawman and you weren't simply confused.
 
Ziggurat said:
Given that correlation != causation, why is there any reason to believe that simply giving people enough money that they no longer qualify as "poor" will actually affect crime to any significant degree?
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Using that as a criteria we shouldn't try anything ever since we can't be sure it would work!
 
Hercules56 said:
The African-American community has the following problems at much higher rates than whites and the USA and general:

-crime

-poverty

-low high school & college graduation rates

-single parent homes

-drug use

-unemployment


The government tried to deal with some of these issues with welfare programs such as Section 8, SNAP, WIC, TANF, but these only helped the very immediate financial issues without helping anyone become self-reliant.

So what do we need to do? Is there anything larger society can do or does the black community have to literally fix itself?
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Yes, I actually read the whole thread, but I miss this:

The problems stop once people stop thinking of "white community" and "black community".

There may still be unemployed, criminals, poor people, etc., but pinning it on ancestry and skin color is creating a problem, not solving it.

No, I don't claim it is easy.

ETA, oh yes and to the people who mourn about long past injustices, I say: Get over it. You can't change to past, but you might change the future.

[/soapbox]

Hans
 
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Mumbles said:
"access to education" actually tends to be limited, actually. Discrimination leads to poorer outcomes even in the same classes, classes like AP courses, music, sciences with labs, etc. Also, there's a bad tendency to oversuspend black students, which leads to lower graduation rates.
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1) Could you post the numbers, please?

2) Are we simply assuming that suspension rates are due to discrimination, or have we eliminated other possibilities (e.g. black students being less disciplined -- which I must admit, is frightening, seeing how undisciplined students normally are.)?
 
Darat said:
Have you any evidence for your contention that education (in a country like the USA and the UK)?
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Is it possible that your sentence is incomplete? I don't understand your request.

The reason for asking is that to take my own country (the UK) for example we have had compulsory good free education for generations and yet still the best indicator of your own wealth is the wealth of the family you are lucky or unlucky to be born into.
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But is it the money itself that makes the difference? It might seem like a silly question, but having money in the family isn't the same as getting higher tax returns.
 
Ziggurat said:
Given that correlation != causation, why is there any reason to believe that simply giving people enough money that they no longer qualify as "poor" will actually affect crime to any significant degree?
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1) This isn't just correlation. It's causation.

2) Take the rest up with Darat. I'm not the one who made the claim. I was just answering your question about poverty being a crucial element to crime rates.
 
Argumemnon said:
1) This isn't just correlation. It's causation.
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Evidence?

ETA: never mind the evidence. I'll just point you to your own remarks:

Argumemnon said:
But is it the money itself that makes the difference? It might seem like a silly question, but having money in the family isn't the same as getting higher tax returns.
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It's not a silly question at all. And it's why so many lottery winners don't stay rich.
 
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Darat said:
Using that as a criteria we shouldn't try anything ever since we can't be sure it would work!
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That makes no sense. It's not a question of knowing whether or not something will work, it's a question of whether or not we're even addressing the cause of a problem. And we know of multiple factors which are causative for crime. Furthermore, you still haven't answered my original question, making your proposal the equivalent of saying you solve a problem by fixing it.
 
Ziggurat said:
Evidence?
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It's times like this when I wonder if you ever read anything at all, if you're just pretending not to know, or if your political leaning prevent you from giving the opposition any point at all.

http://www.unagaliciamoderna.com/eawp/coldata/upload/vol1_14__crime_poverty_india.pdf

http://www.nationaldialoguenetwork.org/poverty-and-crime/

http://www.poverties.org/blog/poverty-and-crime

Not bothing to look further. This is a well known topic and you're a big boy.
 
Argumemnon said:
It's times like this when I wonder if you ever read anything at all, if you're just pretending not to know, or if your political leaning prevent you from giving the opposition any point at all.
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Let me remind you of my original question:

"why is there any reason to believe that simply giving people enough money that they no longer qualify as "poor" will actually affect crime to any significant degree? "

Do any of your sources study the effects on crime of simply giving people lots of money? No, they don't. Actual real-world reduction in poverty happens in a different manner. And all of your sources acknowledge the complexity of the problem, that it isn't just about poverty. Your first source actually lists education spending as more effective at reducing crime than decreased poverty. Your second and third sources are basically copies of each other, and link unemployment as inextricably entwined with both poverty and crime.
 
Argumemnon said:
Is it possible that your sentence is incomplete? I don't understand your request.



But is it the money itself that makes the difference? It might seem like a silly question, but having money in the family isn't the same as getting higher tax returns.
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Sorry that should have ended with "... to cure poverty?"
 
Darat said:
Sorry that should have ended with "... to cure poverty?"
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Which would make the sentence "Have you any evidence for your contention that education (in a country like the USA and the UK) to cure poverty?"

That education to cure poverty. I think I know what you mean, but it's still messed up.

And you still haven't answered my original question.
 
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