psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Sure you have. At most you pointed out that somebody else had something to say about second chances but you couldn't say what.
And guess what you have avoided discussing yet again?
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Baltimore to ban grades lower than 50%?
- Thread starter Graham2001
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And guess what you have avoided discussing yet again?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Not explaining to your satisfaction and in the way you want it explained isn't the same as refusing. Framing it as "refusing" is just plain dirty pool.But here, I'll humor you. Second chances aren't always feasible. In fact, a lot of times they aren't feasible. Giving student's a re-do will often require that an entirely new assignment or test be generated just for them. In many cases, you can't give the same test a second time - it gives some students an unfair advantage both in terms of the time they have to prepare and simply because the results are already out. Similarly, if there is a wish to control for cheating or copying, one can't just give the student a second try at an already finished assignment.
As pointed out by other people, some tests are generated and controlled at a higher level. There is no second version available. Some assignments are practical - a second chance at those requires a significant investment in time from the teacher. Consider the problems involved in giving a second chance at a team sport practical for a physical education exam!
Now that I've played your game, how about you be a friendly and considerate sort and play mine? You've been asked about the mathematical impact of a 0 on the standard scale of 90/80/70/60. How about you explain why you think it's perfectly acceptable to have an F count for 6 times as much weight in the aggregation of a grade than an A. An F has a higher weight in the aggregation than all other grades combined. Does that seem reasonable and fair to you?
Manopolus
Metaphorical Anomaly
It may not be the best for every situation, but all I have to say is that it would have been a major help for me when I was in school. I was one of those kids that routinely didn't do the homework, but got A's on all the tests because I did do any reading assignments (loved to read) and also was an active listener in class. Yeah, I know people hate guys like me, but it would have helped immensely if it was still salvageable after a few early mistakes.
The traditional model just wasn't the right way to learn for me, for whatever reason. No, it wasn't ADHD. I can concentrate just fine -- way better than average, even. I think part of it was just the fact that I resented being assigned homework that I didn't even need to do in order to learn the material just fine. It's like they were asking me to wash perfectly clean dishes just for practice or something, if you want a metaphor. Also, I always did have authority issues and still do, and "achievement" had no appeal to me with regards to school. I was very interested in learning, but not at all in achieving a grade. Really, that's just grading you on obedience, not knowledge, anyway.
...and screw the "deserves" BS that right wingnuts like to fixate on. What matters is results, isn't it? Deserves ain't got nothin' to do with it, but unfortunately, that maxim is only applied in the direction of authority. Given that they didn't break me under the system that was in place, what makes anyone think that trying something else automatically makes it worse?
Bottom line, I think it will help a lot of kids that are "too smart for their own good." The other option would be to get them in a situation that actually challenges them rather than holding them to the same standards as the below average. I've met others that pretty much had the same school experience, so I'm not the only one that scored within the 90th - 99th percentile on standardized tests while occasionally flunking classes all the while. I was definitely the worst case locally, though.
The traditional model just wasn't the right way to learn for me, for whatever reason. No, it wasn't ADHD. I can concentrate just fine -- way better than average, even. I think part of it was just the fact that I resented being assigned homework that I didn't even need to do in order to learn the material just fine. It's like they were asking me to wash perfectly clean dishes just for practice or something, if you want a metaphor. Also, I always did have authority issues and still do, and "achievement" had no appeal to me with regards to school. I was very interested in learning, but not at all in achieving a grade. Really, that's just grading you on obedience, not knowledge, anyway.
...and screw the "deserves" BS that right wingnuts like to fixate on. What matters is results, isn't it? Deserves ain't got nothin' to do with it, but unfortunately, that maxim is only applied in the direction of authority. Given that they didn't break me under the system that was in place, what makes anyone think that trying something else automatically makes it worse?
Bottom line, I think it will help a lot of kids that are "too smart for their own good." The other option would be to get them in a situation that actually challenges them rather than holding them to the same standards as the below average. I've met others that pretty much had the same school experience, so I'm not the only one that scored within the 90th - 99th percentile on standardized tests while occasionally flunking classes all the while. I was definitely the worst case locally, though.
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psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Very good. Now all you have to do is examine my responses to these claims and you will be caught up.
Your maths is a bit off. 0% and 100% average out to 50% which is a pass in my part of the world. That would be a fair result since if these were the only assessment items then the student in question has only demonstrated that they achieved half the course objectives.
Of course, most courses have a lot more than just 2 assessment items and botching one of them might lower your overall grade but not too severely. It's only when a student slacks off for a large part of the course that their passing grade is threatened.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Continuous assessment vs end-of-year test is an interesting debate in itself. You (and I) would have benefited from a single exam at the end of the course. It would be similar for any student who only started to take the course seriously towards the end of the course.
Of course, single test assessments have their risks. You might not be well on the day or the test may prove to be atypical (you might have done better if the test was slightly different). That is why continuous assessment is generally favoured (though not necessarily by teachers who have a heavier workload as a result). The odd failure doesn't threaten your passing grade in a course. Unfortunately, the crawl factor becomes significant with continuous assessment.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
This has been said before. That is not how it is in THIS part of the world - the part that is proposing a 50% for an F. Pass is at 60%.
Let's ignore the entire topic of missed assignments for a moment, since that seems to be your hangup. We can come back to them at a later point. Instead, let's address the impact of a completed assignment that a student totally bombs.
A has a range from 90 to 100+
B has a range from 80 to 89
C has a range from 70 to 79
D has a range from 60 to 69
Stop here for a moment. Notice that passing scores only account for 40% of the range of potential grades. The assignments and exams should be designed so that most of the kids should be capable of passing. But mathematically those passing grades are only 40% of the range.
F is from 0 to 59
A failing score represents 60% of the potential range. This means that a low F on a completed assignment carries more weight in the average score than a passing grade does. It has a bigger impact, all by itself, than a passing grade. A low enough F carries more weight than all passing grades are able to carry.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
A failing score does not represent 60% of the scores achieved so all of your "mathematics" is irrelevant.
Even a poor student (or a student who is having a bad day) is likely to score considerably more than 0% on an assessment task so a failing test result will still add to the aggregate. Only students who make no effort whatsoever risk getting a zero there is no good reason why such a slacker should be rewarded for that.
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
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YeS, but they won't be passing the course of the do nothing, and, much more importantly, when it comes time to hand out grade points (the numbers that follow students around institution to institution), the student will still receive a 0.0 regardless of whether that grade point represents a 50% or a 0%.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
What is "the course of the do nothing"?So what is the point of gifting a total slacker 50% if their "grade point" remains 0.0 regardless?
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
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What I was trying to say in my last on proof read post was that a student who does no work at all will still fail the course, because, in this particular grading system, 50% is not a passing grade. Placing the floor at 50% prevents an otherwise good student who gets a single bad grade from having that bad grade effect there overall grade for the course in a disproportionate way. This may give "something for nothing", but they still have to put in effort to pass the course.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
It appears that you didn't proof read my post that you quoted either. At least, you ignored the point of the post.
You want somebody who fails a test miserably to be equally rewarded as somebody who barely fails.
mijopaalmc
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What is your obsession with punishing student for bad grades?
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
What is your obsession with rewarding students for non-performance?
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
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This is very correct for every school system I have worked for and everyone I have reason to have researched. Some courses are required of every student, some are required of students choosing a particular track as a sort of major - in HS particularly. Other track forms apply but are less in number/form.
Some classes everyone has to pass or they cannot graduate. I would list but it varies some - I suggest looking up some local to you (anyone) systems online and simply see what must be passed to graduate. The required specific ones will be easy to locate.
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't want to speak for the whole world here but where I work that's an F.
One example Orange County Public Schools (Orlando area): note requirements - must be passed to graduate.
www.ocps.net/…C/Pages/Graduation Requirements.pdf
www.ocps.net/…C/Pages/Graduation Requirements.pdf
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
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I'm sorry, I must be missing something here. Teachers in many places aren't free to just throw up their hands and call a kid a slacker. Presumed responsibility ultimately will fall on the teacher. If I can't get a kid to pick up a pencil that is on me, not them. Once they turn 18, all bets are off but in the meantime students are presumed not to be responsible for their own lack of motivation. Therefore teachers are interested in trying harder to motivate their students.
If you really think 50 percent is a passing grade, that explains quite a bit.
For purposes of grade point average you have F=60 percent or less, C=60-70 percent, etc. For purposes of grade point average F=0, D=1, C=2, B=3 and A=4. I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
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Metro Nashville - Davidson County High School Graduation requirements:
http://www.tn.gov/education/topic/graduation-requirements
http://www.tn.gov/education/topic/graduation-requirements
Minoosh
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I am seriously wondering if 9th and 10th grade math should be flipped. Geometry, then Algebra 1, then Algebra 2. Then trig, precalculus, calculus or some kind of consumer/business math.
The reason is, geometry at least is related to shapes, something more tangible than equations of a line etc. I think maybe algebra is just too abstract for some 14-year-olds. I feel like it shouldn't be, but maybe it is.