Baltimore to ban grades lower than 50%?

[psionl0]

That rationale has been given several times, you merely keep ignoring it.

I haven't seen any discussion from you about giving somebody a second chance. You merely keep repeating your reasons for automatically giving somebody 50%.

You keep ignoring the mathematics of grade scoring:

Consider a simple scenario of 5 grades. On the first two, you get a B, which translates to an 80%. Then your mom dies in a car crash and you fall apart. You miss two assignments.

What grade do you have to get on your last assignment in order to pass the class with a 60% minimum, if you receive score of 0% for the two that you missed?

What grade do you have to get on your last assignment in order to pass if you received a score of 50% (which is still an F) on those two that you missed?

I suppose if you ignore responses like:

If you are simply going to delete 0% or 10% or 49% and call the mark 50% then all you do is deny a student the knowledge that they either need to improve slightly or that they are completely hopeless.

Then yes, I have ignored the mathematics of grade scoring.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I haven't seen any discussion from you about giving somebody a second chance. You merely keep repeating your reasons for automatically giving somebody 50%.

There've been many discussions of second chances, including several that point out that it may not be possible, may not be reasonable, and may not be fair. I felt no need to repeat what someone else has said. I generally expect that a group discussion is just that - that each of us will consider information coming from multiple sources to develop our positions. If you are actually expecting that anything I say gets treated completely in isolation, then this is going to be an awfully repetitive and pointless thread

I suppose if you ignore responses like:

Then yes, I have ignored the mathematics of grade scoring.

That comment doesn't address the mathematics of scoring.

 

[fuelair]

I don't agree. Make-up tests should only be allowed when the student has a valid excuse for not being able to take the test on the assigned day, not for poor performance on a test they already took. Once they have seen the test questions they should not be able to retake the test - even if the questions are changed slightly (easier in some subjects than others).

Letting them retake the test also teaches the wrong thing - that you get a second chance if you screw up.

Since most tests in pre college schools are made up from a disk or online publisher source that has a large bank of questions that can be hand or program selected to cover the topic, that is not a problem. Except, of course, in a system like the one here where they get one shot at the target.

By the by, it is, with these computer done tests from a large bank of questions to produce a new test with none of the original questions, but one's that cover the same tested areas just as well. As an example, finding the molar mass of a compound is the same process regardless of the compound so any compound is fine

 

[fuelair]

I'm fairly certain that they're specifically talking about NOT rescaling the pass mark. You have 5 grades: A, B, C, D, F. You have 5 marks: 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%.

Prior to this, you have a heavily bottom-weighted scale. It's FAR easier to get an F, 60% of all possible scores are a failing grade.

In the systems I have worked in, 60% was a D-. Very minor point, but not an F. Generally that comes out as (minor variations possible)app. 61- 63 is D-,
64-67 or 8 is D and 68 or 9 is D+. Same for each higher grade. F has the biggest range with 0 - 59. Note: most parents expect the ABCDF thing so most public schools give them that, BUT for college placement and such the actual points seem preferred.

 

[psionl0]

There've been many discussions of second chances, including several that point out that it may not be possible, may not be reasonable, and may not be fair.

Is this what you mean by the "many discussions"?

I don't agree. Make-up tests should only be allowed when the student has a valid excuse for not being able to take the test on the assigned day, not for poor performance on a test they already took. Once they have seen the test questions they should not be able to retake the test - even if the questions are changed slightly (easier in some subjects than others).

That comment doesn't address the mathematics of scoring.

You and I have different ideas about mathematics.

 

[fuelair]

That doesn't sound like a very good system.

Agreed. Part of (we think) an applied program (including Marzano (of "don't step in the Marzano!!!" fame) to get older teachers to choose to leave/retire so they could replace with pliable young ones who did not know that the perfect or even near perfect way of teaching every subject by every teacher to every student does not exist were simply replacing old styles that had already been found not to work with other old styles that had been found not to work (the key being there is no new method, just new names. Unbelievers should look up older methods and check their supplementary material (learning diagrams and structures are great for verifying this). Ms./Dr. F is great at this and I am great at finding the materials.

We both very kindly decided to retire at the same time - 3 weeks into the opening of school for the benefit of the hatchet man and all around ******* AP. Understand I do not really mean benefit - it caused him a good deal of needed difficulty in his life (we later heard from friends in the school considering similar timings of maximum inconvenience for him!!!) ..........

 

[Emily's Cat]

In the systems I have worked in, 60% was a D-. Very minor point, but not an F. Generally that comes out as (minor variations possible)app. 61- 63 is D-,
64-67 or 8 is D and 68 or 9 is D+. Same for each higher grade. F has the biggest range with 0 - 59. Note: most parents expect the ABCDF thing so most public schools give them that, BUT for college placement and such the actual points seem preferred.

True, but the practical difference between saying 59.9999999% of all potential scores are Fs and saying 60% are Fs is pretty negligible

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is this what you mean by the "many discussions"?

And this one, although I had thought there was more discussion to it.

In our school, and moving to all in the county, one of the requirements was all students in a specific course were required to take the same test and teachers could not modify the grade in any way from what the computer gave it - unless they could show that no correct answer choice was given. To the best of my knowledge that never occurred at our school. Since the admins had full access to all the data there was no way to do such - and repeating the test was not possible since every student had seen all the questions the first time.

You and I have different ideas about mathematics.

I have an idea of mathematics that actually involves calculating things instead of just making sweeping statements that involve a number somewhere among the words.

 

[psionl0]

Agreed. <- The rest of this post I don't understand ->

It sounds like you left the school system because you got fed up with all the bureaucratic meddling. That's the reason that I left.

There are a variety of teaching methods that work and teachers are trained to teach and assess students. They also share experiences with each other and improve that way. Unfortunately, desk bound bureaucrats who have never spent one second in front of a class room think that they know better than all the teachers put together. I ultimately found that I was spending more time filling out forms and complying with other bureaucratic requirements than I spent teaching and assessing students. That's when I said "enough".

 

[psionl0]

And this one, although I had thought there was more discussion to it.

That post explained why a make-up test wasn't possible in fuelair's school and you know my opinion of that system.

 

[fuelair]

It sounds like you left the school system because you got fed up with all the bureaucratic meddling. That's the reason that I left.There are a variety of teaching methods that work and teachers are trained to teach and assess students. They also share experiences with each other and improve that way. Unfortunately, desk bound bureaucrats who have never spent one second in front of a class room think that they know better than all the teachers put together. I ultimately found that I was spending more time filling out forms and complying with other bureaucratic requirements than I spent teaching and assessing students. That's when I said "enough".

Essentially yes. In all the systems I worked in, the required method (no matter how flexible - which the last (Marzano) was not at all) was specified by the state or (when options existed/were allowed) the county (Davidson in Tennessee, Hillsborough, Pasco and Orange in Florida and changed every few years depending on which hot new one was currently preferred (there is pretty much a 27-30 year changeover but it occurs in 7 to 10 year cycles - this works out in a weird way) and how long it took to forget the current one had come and gone previously (and why) in a system).As to related, one of my most pleasant times was a three day presentation in Pasco of ways for working better with and getting better results from troubled/troublesome students. The gentleman who developed the program and manual and tapes for the program was amazingly adept at never giving sources/studies/citings for stats, etc. and so on the last day as he was speaking about ways of passing and selecting materials he asked if any of us had suggestions. With full assumptive knowledge (based on his lack of the previously noted) I raised my hand and asked if he could suggest ways the book Cultural Literacy (big! then) could be used to help the students. 15-20 blank seconds passed and he finally spoke. Making it dead certain he had not only not read the book but was unfamiliar with it's existence. Those of us who had read it now new for certain he had made up pretty much all of what he had been giving us over the three days. The discussions among us at lunch and on leaving in the mid afternoon were not positive. (for him - we were all fine)!!!


Oddly, some months earlier (I was one of the media specialists at the time) our gifted teacher was doing really dumb stuff with his class based on the book. I happened upon them as he finished giving the assignment which in essence was list the Patriarchs of the Jewish People which were listed in the book. I asked why? casually and he responded - Oh, well that is something that is part of our cultural literacy. I quietly asked one of the students what a patriarch was. No answer. I quietly also pointed out to the gifted teacher why making lists by copying from the book was not actually the idea of the book but more things the teacher should be covering in some more informational way. We had one of those gifted teachers that wasn't and (honest) one of those SLD teachers who was. The SLD person was to be sent students who needed help on taking the tests in science )or other subjects. She at first requested an answer sheet so she could check the tests and then send them to us. Knowing enough about her to guess and finding we were right, (The SLD students all had perfect scores on the first test done that way). Next test we sent her a key where every answer was wrong. Amazingly every student failed exactly the same way. We then had one of the other SLD teachers have a little discussion with her suggesting she would no longer get such a sheet and it would be wise not to "help" the students get the actual answer, just help them with vocabulary and math - as she was supposed to do. We did allow the kids to redo the tests as it was not their fault.

 

[Edward Charette]

Ridiculous. An effective education system is one which accomodates students of all grades.

 

[fuelair]

Ridiculous. An effective education system is one which accomodates students of all grades.

Could you A) expand on that and B) let us know to which post you are responding.
to.

For example define grades in a way that explains what you are accommodating such as: the grades on a test or in a class, the grades roughly attached to a student's age. the capabilities, not likely, but possible, of the student???

 

[fuelair]

By the by, if you click the quote box on the bottom right for the post you are referring to then that post joins a new box and you simply write your question/comments after the quoted part.

 

[psionl0]

Could you A) expand on that and B) let us know to which post you are responding.
to.

I doubt that Edward can do either. This looks like a fly-by response to an OP title that doesn't consider any other responses to the OP.

 

[Minoosh]

If you can get 50% for doing absolutely nothing then why bother attending at all?

Here's another way to look at it: The school receives funding just for the kid showing up. Showing up is important in life, so maybe that should be part of the grade. It probably should not be a full 50 percent, but it were, the student would still have do do some work to get a D. Once they figure out they can't possibly pass they give up and/or become behavioral challenges, which can sometimes become detrimental to the class as a whole.

 

[Minoosh]

Understand I do not really mean benefit - it caused him a good deal of needed difficulty in his life (we later heard from friends in the school considering similar timings of maximum inconvenience for him!!!) ..........

I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

 

[Klimax]

I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

Don't know about Soviet eduication system but Czech system was one of the best. Producing very good results. Sadly, was...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trends_in_International_Mathematics_and_Science_Study#Top_10_countries_by_subject_and_year

(We thought a lot of studetns from Africa and Middle East - iran, Iran, Egyptians,...)

 

[fuelair]

I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

In reality it is functionally impossible to reasonably (from a scientific and statistical base) do that kind of testing of a new/"new" way of presenting/teaching material to/with students as getting permissions in a variety of schools/districts to have some continue with the current systems and others stay with the old (necessary for a valid study) would automatically give parents a complaint basis if their child was not getting good grades - they could blame if their child wasn't in the new or if their child wasn't getting the known version. So, the new systems (most of which are actually everything old is new again structures/methods) are only tested in a few classrooms and can be attributed to the teachers carefully selected to apply them based on their general higher results with their students rather than any differences in methods used. No studies I have seen or heard of have shown to be statistically better than any other systems generally tried with the minor exception that in some cases with a particular system change with students who are doing their best on what is required for a good grade the B level students sometimes tend to drift down to C or D and the C and D students sometimes tend to move up to B or higher C due apparently to being used to the previous system and the effects of the change from it. There tends to be little effect on the A and F students though. This has a high likelihood of being related to teaching and learning styles and their relationships that depend on the method being used and the comfort of teacher and students with that method.

 

[fuelair]

Also, if you can hang on a bit and are helping do it as long as you can be comfortable with it - but no longer!! Your health and sanity are important too!!!!!!!