Another unarmed black man shot

[N0z]

No.

This is actually important. I've had my life derailed, multiple times, just because of this nonsense. And I was always nervous when the cops showed up. I always knew that they could just shoot me, and folks'd say I was a "thug" or whatever.

But these kids. They refuse to accept this nonsense. I like hem.

Why? Do you "act a fool" at first spotting police? Do you obey officers commands? Resist arrest? I'm curious why you fear being shot. If you are courteous, and professional and obey the orders of the officers you encounter I bet you have a better chance of a positive encounter with police regardless of any skin color you happen to be.

 

[Sherkeu]

Officer Shelby's side told (through her attorney - not first hand)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843

She passes him on way to a call, then also sees a still-running car blocking traffic and stops. Checks out passenger side of car to see if anyone is inside. Windows are open. Walks around toward other side and sees Crutcher walking over and asks him if it's his car.

"...Crutcher didn't respond, simply dropping his head while continuing to look at Shelby, "kind of under his brow," Wood said. Crutcher then began to put his hand into his left pocket, Wood said, adding that Shelby told Crutcher, "Hey, please keep your hands out of your pocket while you're talking to me. Let's deal with his car."

Crutcher did not respond, Wood said, so Shelby ordered him again to get his hand out of his pocket. He then pulled his hand away and put his hands up in the air, even though he was not instructed to do so, which Shelby found strange, Wood said.

Shelby tried to get Crutcher to talk to her, but he simply mumbled something unintelligible and stared at her..."

Story continues that she realizes he is likely "on" something and expects to arrest him for public intoxication.
She calls it in. Pulls out gun instead of taser. Orders him to get to his knees. He keeps walking. Gets to door and his arm reaches inside the window and she fires.

Where is her dashcam video? Where is the person who first called it in as a man running from his car saying it was gonna "blow"?

Also, what do police do when someone is obviously intoxicated or otherwise mentally ill/incapable/delusional/psychotic, etc... and they try to get in a running vehicle? Or any vehicle really. Can they use more than a taser? Do they have ways to quickly disable the vehicle? Would they be more likely to block the roads and do it that way to corner the vehicle somehow?

 

[Puppycow]

In this case, the other officer (the female?) almost immediatly shoots the guy.

Speculation....Since the officer with the Taser did not "announce"....She might have thought that her partner fired his weapon and joined in. (I think there is a high likelyhood of this, she seemed very agitated.)

So what does this tell us about the theory that the way to reduce police violence is to hire more female cops?

If You Want Less Police Violence, Hire More Female Cops

KING: To combat police brutality, hire more female cops — studies show they’re better at keeping their cool

 

[Dr. Keith]

Please do. Also, do you happen to have percentages on who is killed by who more often and by what percentage with police vs black people. (are more black people shot by police or are more black people shot by other black people. (percentages)

Oh and could you also tell us: are more black police shot by homosexual muslims or homosexual atheists?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Why? Do you "act a fool" at first spotting police? Do you obey officers commands? Resist arrest? I'm curious why you fear being shot. If you are courteous, and professional and obey the orders of the officers you encounter I bet you have a better chance of a positive encounter with police regardless of any skin color you happen to be.

Like reaching for your wallet when asked to present an ID?

 

[William Parcher]

Gets to door and his arm reaches inside the window and she fires.

People are saying that the driver's window was rolled up and you can see blood on it. I've watched a good quality version of the helicopter video. I think the window is down and the "blood streak" is actually the black shoulder belt seen against the light colored seat.

 

[robertovila]

One thing is for sure, at least in my circle of friends and family- The pursuit of a career in entry level law enforcement in the form of a town, county, or state Police Officer these days is simply not worth it. Far too much risk, real or otherwise, and far too little pay. The national rush to judgement in so many cases before all the facts are known is just too much of a gamble.

 

[Bogative]

People are saying that the driver's window was rolled up and you can see blood on it. I've watched a good quality version of the helicopter video. I think the window is down and the "blood streak" is actually the black shoulder belt seen against the light colored seat.

I agree with your belief that the left window is down. At least partially, and it looks to me as though Crutcher is trying to stick his arm in like he's trying to open the door from the outside. That would explain why the male officer shot him with the Taser – to prevent him from entering the vehicle and driving off. I still haven't seen anything that would justify him being shot with the gun, though. No way to know for sure until we see crime scene photos.

 

[Sherkeu]

People are saying that the driver's window was rolled up and you can see blood on it. I've watched a good quality version of the helicopter video. I think the window is down and the "blood streak" is actually the black shoulder belt seen against the light colored seat.

I think it safe to say the window was down, at least part way.
If it is all the way up, there will be spatter on the bottom part of the window where blood hit directly and none inside the vehicle. The attorney would be an idiot to claim something so easily refuted by evidence.

 

[cullennz]

I think it safe to say the window was down, at least part way.
If it is all the way up, there will be spatter on the bottom part of the window where blood hit directly and none inside the vehicle. The attorney would be an idiot to claim something so easily refuted by evidence.

 

[Bogative]

IF my speculations are correct....The male officer deploying the Taser is guilty only of a minor procedural infraction....Failing to announce that he was going to use the thing.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you come to that determination?

There are two separate recordings from patrol cars that were on the scene at the time the shooting but neither one of them record anything from outside of the vehicle, it's all from the inside of the vehicle. The only voices audible in the recordings are those that are being broadcast over the radio. It seems as if none of the officers outside of the vehicles have any type of recording device on their person to record what is going on.

If none of the officers have any means of recording what they are saying outside of the vehicle, wouldn't it be difficult to determine what was said as they approached and confronted Crutcher?

 

[tyr_13]

Please do. Also, do you happen to have percentages on who is killed by who more often and by what percentage with police vs black people. (are more black people shot by police or are more black people shot by other black people. (percentages)

What, exactly, do you think that information would support? That black people being unjustly killed by black people justifies police killing black people?

I've seen this argument before, but cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone would be convinced by it. It's almost like they don't realize that we hold police to a much higher standard than murderers.

As I said in another thread, if more white people are killed in shady circumstances than black people (total number or percentages), but white people do nothing about it, then that shows that black people tend to be more civic minded, and patriotic, than whites on average. They see a problem, and do something to address it. Yet somehow that makes them wrong because white people are complacent in the violence?

Personally, I think there is a lot of racial disparity in the justice and law systems around the US, but because there are so many different ones, it's hard for some to relate to. I also think that many specific instances that are attributed to racism, are not, and that hurts the entire conversation. But that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of racism still around. The fear police have with being killed is not in step with the risk. The fear black people have of police is likewise becoming out of step with reality.

That the fear is out of line with the risk does not mean there isn't a problem worth addressing!

(Sorry, disjointed rant is just jumping off from your post rather than all addressing it.)

 

[William Parcher]

The attorney would be an idiot to claim something so easily refuted by evidence.

That's exactly what the family attorney Crump is claiming. He is claiming a closed window with a blood streak on the window.

He's seeing the shoulder belt, not a blood streak. Window is open.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Common sense on one hand says to just obey the cops and keep your hands up and out of your pockets.

So if you are mentally ill or deaf, you're fair game for the cops, after all you didn't follow their instructions.

Common sense on another hand would tell you not to get high on PCP, park in the middle of the street and refuse to comply with police.

Now to a cop whose adrenalin is pumping because they're not getting compliance from some dude who parked in the middle of the road, common sense would probably suggest that if he's refusing to obey his commands and reaching into his pockets, he's got something in there he wants out and it might be dangerous.

Is suspicion of that grounds to kill someone? Surely not. But common sense should tell you that it will happen from time to time in high stress situations. It's unfortunate, but it's different than murder.

I see you don't care what you saw on the video, you prefer to rely made up stuff we have no evidence of instead.

 

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post

I think it safe to say the window was down, at least part way.
If it is all the way up, there will be spatter on the bottom part of the window where blood hit directly and none inside the vehicle. The attorney would be an idiot to claim something so easily refuted by evidence.

[qimg]https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/09/21/11/terence-crutcher-shooting.jpg[/qimg]

Maybe the window is open at the bottom, not the top

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Planting drug evidence would be pointless in this case. Toxicology tests are what matter. Take off the tinfoil hat.

You don't need a tin foil hat to think evidence would be planted in any shooting, anything to make the suspect look like a bad guy.

How did the cops know it was PCP before a drug analysis was done? Is there a street test for PCP the cops use?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.
....

That makes the assumption if you are mentally ill or deaf, it's your fault if the police shoot you.

Try stepping back a minute. What is clear from the videos of this shooting, of the Tamir Rice shooting, from the officer that shot the man in the car that his girlfriend livestreamed, the guy shot in the Walmart with the air rifle off the shelf, the guy who shot the man getting his license out of his car after being told to produce his license, these are cops that overreact, shoot without taking the time to actually assess the situation. Was the guy who went to get his license out of the car supposed to know he needed to tell the cops that is what he was doing? Was it his job to know that?

Then you have a number of incidents where contempt of cop is the crime. That 17 yr old kid that kept walking until a new cop arrived on the scene and pumped 17 bullets into him? What was that about, tough ****, the dumb kid deserved the death penalty for contempt of cop?

But here again comes the JREF right wing to show their contempt for anyone who a cop shoots no matter the circumstances, it must have been the victim's fault, the victim's responsibility, cops are not responsible for negligence of any kind on their part.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I've said before, though, that this is not the way citizens of a free country should expect to be treated by their police officers; it is the way citizens of an occupied country should expect to be treated by the occupying army. Do exactly what you're told and follow orders to the letter, because if you don't, you will probably be shot and killed. This is no way for a free country to be organized.

On Saturday night, I was stopped by a police officer. He walked over to my car, told me that one of my headlights was out, and politely asked me to follow him to a nearby testing centre. A few moments later he came back and told me that he'd just checked my records and seen that I'd only just got the car MOT tested (a British thing, not sure if you do it elsewhere but cars legally have to be safety tested annually) and that I needn't bother so could I just make sure I got the bulb changed. At no point was I in fear of my life if I didn't do exactly as he said, or even didn't appear to him to be doing exactly as he said. I wasn't afraid that my autistic son, who was in the car with me, might do something unpredictable that would result in him being shot, or, for some inexplicable reason, both of us. I just had a brief and friendly interaction with a public servant who was doing his job of making sure the law-abiding public are safe. That's what the police are there for; to uphold the law and protect the safety of the law-abiding.

If, in the course of their duties, the police themselves have become a significant threat to life and liberty, and the general population is OK with them being such a threat, then something has gone tragically wrong.

Dave

Actually the rules about escalation of force with civilians is much stricter in the military. I know a few veterans who have expressed no end of frustration on this point as it destroys the trust. A lot of crime gets solved because of tips and informants. If the population doesn't trust you, you get endless piles of unsolved cases since the people see the police as even worse than the criminals. It's the same with occupation/pacification, if your forces are reckless, cavalier, and have no accountability, you'll soon have an out-of-control insurgency.

There are still grey areas and hollow rationalizations, however. If someone is killed in a special forces raid, you can be pretty sure it will show up in the daily press release as an 'unlawful combatant'. Mission after mission with enemies killed/captured and magically not a single civilian harmed (on paper).

This is starting to (well, has for a while for me) feel more and more like that.

"It appears we killed you, which as we all know means you must have been up to something."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I believe it is an irrational fear being hyped. What are the odds of being shot by the police when you are not doing anything illegal? Do you have the stats by race?

Police conveniently don't keep stats on persons killed by police, hopefully that will change.

On the other side we do have the stop and frisk stats in NYC before it was ruled unconstitutional by the courts, 90% or more of the people stopped were doing nothing wrong and 90% were black or Hispanic.

We also have Sandra Bland who was arrested for being mildly rude to a cop who stopped her for a bogus traffic violation.

We know the poor people of Ferguson were being given tickets because the fees were a big chunk of the city's budget.

And I'm sure it's not hard to show that driving while black is something that gets one stopped by the police on that basis alone.

It is not an irrational fear.

 

[SashatheMagnificent]

So many problems from weak gun control in the United States