Another unarmed black man shot

N0z said:
I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.
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Of course they didn't shoot this guy disobeying police orders while clearly armed. They should have.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/police-accidentally-record-themselves-conspiring-fabricate-criminal-charges-against

Outrageous that they didn't shoot an armed man refusing their commands. That would have settled so much for them.
 
Arisia said:
I have a feeling if I were to 'disobey police orders' to the extent this victim did, I would not be subjected to either a taser hit or a gunshot. I could be wrong, but as a white female living in an affluent far west suburb of Boston I'm betting I could get away with quite a bit before the police even showed their weapons, let alone used them. And I'm a firearms owner, I could actually have a handgun in my glovebox or under my seat.
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North of Boston we had a drunk white girl bite an ear off of an officer. The girl is still alive to regret it.
 
N0z said:
I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.

It is a stupid way to die. Deal with the issued in court. Not on the street. For goodness sakes, more black community leaders need to teach the community how to react to police, and always obey officers commands, never resist.

That will save black lives. Not bitching about nervous police reaction to someone acting like they are going back for a gun in their car. Why didnt the guy just stop? Well we will never know now. I guess more black people need to die not listening to police before people will start understanding how deadly this can be. It is not a game to be played with the police. ALWAYS OBEY THE OFFICERS COMMANDS. Sad to see another life loss to what appears to be stupidity on both sides.
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I've said before, though, that this is not the way citizens of a free country should expect to be treated by their police officers; it is the way citizens of an occupied country should expect to be treated by the occupying army. Do exactly what you're told and follow orders to the letter, because if you don't, you will probably be shot and killed. This is no way for a free country to be organized.

On Saturday night, I was stopped by a police officer. He walked over to my car, told me that one of my headlights was out, and politely asked me to follow him to a nearby testing centre. A few moments later he came back and told me that he'd just checked my records and seen that I'd only just got the car MOT tested (a British thing, not sure if you do it elsewhere but cars legally have to be safety tested annually) and that I needn't bother so could I just make sure I got the bulb changed. At no point was I in fear of my life if I didn't do exactly as he said, or even didn't appear to him to be doing exactly as he said. I wasn't afraid that my autistic son, who was in the car with me, might do something unpredictable that would result in him being shot, or, for some inexplicable reason, both of us. I just had a brief and friendly interaction with a public servant who was doing his job of making sure the law-abiding public are safe. That's what the police are there for; to uphold the law and protect the safety of the law-abiding.

If, in the course of their duties, the police themselves have become a significant threat to life and liberty, and the general population is OK with them being such a threat, then something has gone tragically wrong.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
I've said before, though, that this is not the way citizens of a free country should expect to be treated by their police officers; it is the way citizens of an occupied country should expect to be treated by the occupying army. Do exactly what you're told and follow orders to the letter, because if you don't, you will probably be shot and killed. This is no way for a free country to be organized.

On Saturday night, I was stopped by a police officer. He walked over to my car, told me that one of my headlights was out, and politely asked me to follow him to a nearby testing centre. A few moments later he came back and told me that he'd just checked my records and seen that I'd only just got the car MOT tested (a British thing, not sure if you do it elsewhere but cars legally have to be safety tested annually) and that I needn't bother so could I just make sure I got the bulb changed. At no point was I in fear of my life if I didn't do exactly as he said, or even didn't appear to him to be doing exactly as he said. I wasn't afraid that my autistic son, who was in the car with me, might do something unpredictable that would result in him being shot, or, for some inexplicable reason, both of us. I just had a brief and friendly interaction with a public servant who was doing his job of making sure the law-abiding public are safe. That's what the police are there for; to uphold the law and protect the safety of the law-abiding.
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And that is quite similar to most interactions I have had with the police, but then again I am white so they don't feel the need to point their guns at me as quickly.
 
N0z said:
I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.
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I really don't know how well I'd be thinking with a gun pointed at me.

I certainly can't be certain I'd even hear or understand any commands at all given that my thought process would go something like this:

"There's a gun in my face, There's a gun in my face, There's a gun in my face"


Anyone that's played sport at any level will tell you that, under stress, even the most highly trained make stupid errors, when blood is pumping (and what's more likely than the threat of imminent death to get the heart racing) and the adrenaline is flowing, remaining composed and reacting how one is supposed to is, I think, much more difficult than some might portray it to be.


Armed forces the world over invest a lot of time teaching and training people how to react under fire or threat of fire. I don't think 'just do as you're told' is quite as simple as some make it sound.
 
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I always hesitate to speculate on these incidents before all the fact are in but in this case it certainly doesn't appear that the shooting is justified and also that proper procedures were not followed.

The guy is acting like a PCP head. PCP has become relatively rare but we've dealt with a few of them and they can go from acting "weird" (or even deleriously happy) to extreme violence in a heartbeat.
The fellow in the video is pretty obviously off in his own world and is posing no immediate threat.

I don't know what the situation was with more backup, but it seems to me that a first step would have been to shut down the roadway in both directions, lest the fellow wander out in front of a truck.
Maybe there was no backup available? We don't know.

At any rate, the fellow is not compliant, but also not aggressive. Likely the use of the Taser was justified, if only to keep the guy from hurting himself..
The officer with the Taser does not follow procedure. We are taught to make sure the target is "clear" and to loudly announce "Taser! Taser! Taser!" so that other officers know exactly what's going on.
When you fire the Taser, and it's a good hit, you immediatly move in to cuff the individual while the officer holding the Taser remains prepared to deliver a second shock.

In this case, the other officer (the female?) almost immediatly shoots the guy.

Speculation....Since the officer with the Taser did not "announce"....She might have thought that her partner fired his weapon and joined in. (I think there is a high likelyhood of this, she seemed very agitated.)

Obviously the Taser was effective, as the guy went down. At that point... You've got him. Difficulties arise from his size and the degree to which he recovers from the shock. Tasers work well on PCP heads.....
 
ponderingturtle said:
I don't think very many people believe that, it is though rage, fear and incompetence that police kill so many innocent people. Now cops do clearly enjoy watching their police dogs tear the faces off of suicidal teens hiding in garbage cans. But that is just good clean fun.

http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribune.com/2015/07/12/scarred-bite-stories-reveal-darker-side-of-north-ports-award-winning-police-canine-team/
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They also like sic dogs on toddlers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/k9-attacks-toddler_us_56840804e4b06fa68881a474
 
N0z said:
I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.

It is a stupid way to die. Deal with the issued in court. Not on the street. For goodness sakes, more black community leaders need to teach the community how to react to police, and always obey officers commands, never resist.

That will save black lives. Not bitching about nervous police reaction to someone acting like they are going back for a gun in their car. Why didnt the guy just stop? Well we will never know now. I guess more black people need to die not listening to police before people will start understanding how deadly this can be. It is not a game to be played with the police. ALWAYS OBEY THE OFFICERS COMMANDS. Sad to see another life loss to what appears to be stupidity on both sides.
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USA will continue to viewed with disgust by civilised people when they see reactions like this after watching multiple unnecessary deaths like this.

Officer Bawbag "Get down and [SNIP] boy"
Suicidal black dude "nope"

*Bang*

Peanut gallery "He should have listened to the orders"

Case dismissed

Edited by kmortis: 
Removed to comply with Rule 2
 
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Bikewer said:
I always hesitate to speculate on these incidents before all the fact are in but in this case it certainly doesn't appear that the shooting is justified and also that proper procedures were not followed.
...

Speculation....Since the officer with the Taser did not "announce"....She might have thought that her partner fired his weapon and joined in. (I think there is a high likelyhood of this, she seemed very agitated.)

Obviously the Taser was effective, as the guy went down. At that point... You've got him. Difficulties arise from his size and the degree to which he recovers from the shock. Tasers work well on PCP heads.....
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I was hoping you would chime in on this one. So, in your expert opinion, if this went down the way you hypothesize, is one officer culpable, both, one more than the other? Also, what would typically be departmental actions toward the officers?
 
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N0z said:
COLONEL said:
Just my two cents worth, when the cops tell you not to move and you keep moving, then you drop one arm and reach into your vehicle, how are they supposed to react? The guy could have been reaching for a weapon. Bottom line do what the police tell you.
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I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.

It is a stupid way to die. Deal with the issued in court. Not on the street. For goodness sakes, more black community leaders need to teach the community how to react to police, and always obey officers commands, never resist.

That will save black lives. Not bitching about nervous police reaction to someone acting like they are going back for a gun in their car. Why didnt the guy just stop? Well we will never know now. I guess more black people need to die not listening to police before people will start understanding how deadly this can be. It is not a game to be played with the police. ALWAYS OBEY THE OFFICERS COMMANDS. Sad to see another life loss to what appears to be stupidity on both sides.
Click to expand...


Police training video here.
 
N0z said:
I see a lot of people wanting to ignore that. I guess you're a "victim of police brutality" if you refuse to listen to orders of police now days. I'm not saying this is a clear case on any front. It does seem that not obeying the officers lead to his death. Go ahead and put all of the blame on the cops. Don't worry about the guy who ignored the police commands while under gunpoint.

It is a stupid way to die. Deal with the issued in court. Not on the street. For goodness sakes, more black community leaders need to teach the community how to react to police, and always obey officers commands, never resist.

That will save black lives. Not bitching about nervous police reaction to someone acting like they are going back for a gun in their car. Why didnt the guy just stop? Well we will never know now. I guess more black people need to die not listening to police before people will start understanding how deadly this can be. It is not a game to be played with the police. ALWAYS OBEY THE OFFICERS COMMANDS. Sad to see another life loss to what appears to be stupidity on both sides.
Click to expand...

Lena gets her son ready for school
She says, "On these streets, Charles
You've got to understand the rules
If an officer stops you, promise me you'll always be polite
And that you'll never ever run away
Promise Mama you'll keep your hands in sight"
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Why should black people have to fear being shot by the police when white people don't?
 
zooterkin said:
Why should black people have to fear being shot by the police when white people don't?
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I'm not sure, but what I have read in the paper most gun crimes in the Boston area are committed by blacks, so just maybe the cops go with the thought that most blacks are armed, causing non criminal blacks to fear the police because of what others have done even when the responding officer is black
 
COLONEL said:
I'm not sure, but what I have read in the paper most gun crimes in the Boston area are committed by blacks, so just maybe the cops go with the thought that most blacks are armed, causing non criminal blacks to fear the police because of what others have done even when the responding officer is black
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That is bad logic - it possibly is part of the logic that is used.

Regardless of the proportion of gun crimes committed by blacks compared to whites, gun criminals are only a small proportion of the population.

A silly illustration: most* of the most notorious genocidal leaders in the 20th century had mustaches (may not be true). That doesn't make a person with a mustache likely to be a genocidal leader.


*Hitler, Stalin, but not Mao.
 
I was so hoping that electing the uniter in-chief Barrack Hussein Obama would help our race relations. :rolleyes:
 
Dave Rogers said:
I've said before, though, that this is not the way citizens of a free country should expect to be treated by their police officers; it is the way citizens of an occupied country should expect to be treated by the occupying army. Do exactly what you're told and follow orders to the letter, because if you don't, you will probably be shot and killed. This is no way for a free country to be organized.
On Saturday night, I was stopped by a police officer. He walked over to my car, told me that one of my headlights was out, and politely asked me to follow him to a nearby testing centre. A few moments later he came back and told me that he'd just checked my records and seen that I'd only just got the car MOT tested (a British thing, not sure if you do it elsewhere but cars legally have to be safety tested annually) and that I needn't bother so could I just make sure I got the bulb changed. At no point was I in fear of my life if I didn't do exactly as he said, or even didn't appear to him to be doing exactly as he said. I wasn't afraid that my autistic son, who was in the car with me, might do something unpredictable that would result in him being shot, or, for some inexplicable reason, both of us. I just had a brief and friendly interaction with a public servant who was doing his job of making sure the law-abiding public are safe. That's what the police are there for; to uphold the law and protect the safety of the law-abiding.

If, in the course of their duties, the police themselves have become a significant threat to life and liberty, and the general population is OK with them being such a threat, then something has gone tragically wrong.
Dave
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You hint that the United States is a Free Country, and it is by only one standard that I can think of: the First Amendment. Otherwise, I don't think it is so free and the fact that the United States has almost as many people in its prison systems than both Russia and China combined, and the US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world.

How is this Freedom?
 
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