Brexit: Now What? Part II

[catsmate]

So your answer is not to control immigration at all then ?
Because to control who comes in, makes one "rabid right" ?

I've seen some silly arguments on here but that takes the cake, the biscuits and the after dinner mints.

Strawman.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Look, our politicians have encouraged them to come. The EU has encouraged them to come. But nothing is being done to make them safe and thousands have died.

So either we stop them coming completely, or we provide safe passage.

Doing what the EU is doing is not helping. It is not providing safe passage, it is not stopping them coming. It is dithering.
It's criminal negligence.

I am proposing getting a multinational operation going via the United Nations, with as many safe countries around the world as possible involved in taking in legitimate asylum seekers.

That is what I would propose if I were in the UK government, that is what I would propose if I was on the EU Commission.

We can either blockade, or aid (I would aid).
But we cannot sit on our hands.
People including children are dying because of trafficking and the dangerous sea crossings need to be stopped.

That's good, but what has any of it got to do with Brexit?

Maybe you need a seperate thread?

 

[abaddon]

Schengen is the EU's biggest security problem. It affects us whether we're in or out because it reduces the security of our nearest neighbours and there is a mass exodus of illegal immigrants at Calais, some are legit refugees, but not all.

It has endangered the lives of Britons abroad in France.
The massacre of 13th November last year saw Britons shot dead at a rock concert in Paris.
Terrorists had crossed the Schengen zone with guns.

Schengen is faulty. It needs scrapping.

It's nothing to do with you. The UK is not in Schengen and never has been.

How about you use that 350 million per week and use it to secure your utterly porous borders? That's what you want, no? Brexit is a done deal according to you. Best you crack on with dealing with it.

As for Bataclan, the perpetrators were French citizens committing crimes in France. Removing Schengen would have made no difference whatsoever.

One Briton died and he was part of the band's crew. Since he was working, under Brexit he likely would have survived as he would have had to apply for a working visa, I guess, which may or may not have been successful.

 

[Aepervius]

Closing down Schengen and implementing passport checks and checks on vehicles across each border would have had an effect.

Don't you see how the EU has made it easier for criminals ?

Going into UK I had to show my passport. What the heck are you talking about ?

 

[Aepervius]

It's nothing to do with you. The UK is not in Schengen and never has been.

How about you use that 350 million per week and use it to secure your utterly porous borders? That's what you want, no? Brexit is a done deal according to you. Best you crack on with dealing with it.

As for Bataclan, the perpetrators were French citizens committing crimes in France. Removing Schengen would have made no difference whatsoever.

One Briton died and he was part of the band's crew. Since he was working, under Brexit he likely would have survived as he would have had to apply for a working visa, I guess, which may or may not have been successful.

It shows the quality of airfix research. I am betting he will be deflecting onto another subject. That seem his approach. Shown that he is wrong about an europe army ? Deflect onto wish of somebody. Wrong about fishery ? Deflect onto... You get the drift.

 

[The Don]

Schengen is the EU's biggest security problem.

Evidence ?

It affects us whether we're in or out because it reduces the security of our nearest neighbours

Evidence ?

and there is a mass exodus of illegal immigrants at Calais, some are legit refugees, but not all.

Even if they are not refugees, it does not follow that they are terrorists

It has endangered the lives of Britons abroad in France.

Evidence ?

The massacre of 13th November last year saw Britons shot dead at a rock concert in Paris.

Thought it was French Islamic terrorists that carried out the Bataclan attack

Terrorists had crossed the Schengen zone with guns.

And long before Schengen was even thought of, the IRA managed to smuggle arms into the UK, ETA managed to smuggle arms and explosives into the Basque region and so on..

Schengen is faulty. It needs scrapping.

Evidence ?

edited to add.....

I thought that we lefties were all for the free movement of people around the world and it was the right-wing authoritarians who wanted to make things as difficult as possible for people and ideas to move around...

 

[Andy_Ross]

Our Border Force has 3 small patrol vessels to cover the entire coast of the uk.
Boat is the easiest way in, it always has been. There isn't even a customs office in Whitby or Scarborough anymore.

 

[Airfix]

It's nothing to do with you. The UK is not in Schengen and never has been.

How about you use that 350 million per week and use it to secure your utterly porous borders? That's what you want, no? Brexit is a done deal according to you. Best you crack on with dealing with it.

As for Bataclan, the perpetrators were French citizens committing crimes in France. Removing Schengen would have made no difference whatsoever.

One Briton died and he was part of the band's crew. Since he was working, under Brexit he likely would have survived as he would have had to apply for a working visa, I guess, which may or may not have been successful.

Our borders are not "utterly porus".
There's sea around the UK.
Crossing by sea in small vessels is not without hazards.

As for the 13th November terrorist attack (Bataclan was only one of the places attacked), according to wikipedia two of the terrorists were Iraqis, two were Belgian citizens, the other five had French citizenship.

And another thing, EU nationals amongst them who fought in Syria were able to get back into Europe and cross it with guns.
That doesn't say much for the Schengen system at all.

If they hadn't been able to smuggle their guns in, the death toll might have been lower.

And I can criticise it, because we're still paying towards the budget of the idiots who created it.

 

[Airfix]

I thought that we lefties were all for the free movement of people around the world and it was the right-wing authoritarians who wanted to make things as difficult as possible for people and ideas to move around...

Not all of us.

Some of us don't believe in unlimited free movement because it potentially means free movement of guns, drugs, nuclear materials and bombs, racists, right wing authoritarians, infectious diseases, robbers, rapists, and murderers.

 

[Airfix]

Our Border Force has 3 small patrol vessels to cover the entire coast of the uk.

Well start employing ship builders again and build more. And hire more border workers even if they're not British, it'll get unemployment down.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Well start employing ship builders again and build more. And hire more border workers even if they're not British, it'll get unemployment down.

They can't afford any more, there has just been another delay in placing orders for the next batch of RN Frigates to save money. If they don't place the orders soon the yard on the Clyde that was supposed to get the order might have to close when the Carriers are finushed and we won't have a yard capable of building them anyway.
Maybe building warships for us could be an EU bargaining chip.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Not all of us.

Some of us don't believe in unlimited free movement because it potentially means free movement of guns, drugs, nuclear materials and bombs, racists, right wing authoritarians, infectious diseases, robbers, rapists, and murderers.

Presumably you are for the free movement of all of the above from bristol to london and cardiff to Newcastle?

Whats different about paris to brussels or munich to madrid?

 

[The Don]

Presumably you are for the free movement of all of the above from bristol to london and cardiff to Newcastle?

Whats different about paris to brussels or munich to madrid?

They're foreign and therefore suspect

 

[The Don]

They can't afford any more, there has just been another delay in placing orders for the next batch of RN Frigates to save money. If they don't place the orders soon the yard on the Clyde that was supposed to get the order might have to close when the Carriers are finushed and we won't have a yard capable of building them anyway.
Maybe building warships for us could be an EU bargaining chip.

I believe the idea is that if only the UK government could subsidise the shipbuilding industry enough then it could compete on the world stage. We'll end up spending billions, tens of billions even, to support a 19th century industry in the face of economic inevitability..

If the government was capable of such largesse, I would prefer to see it invested in the national infrastructure and/or the industries of the future but that's just me.

It seems that there is a section of the left wing who seems to want to return to the industries of the 1950's (coal mining, shipbuilding and so on)

 

[abaddon]

Our borders are not "utterly porus".

Why does the UK have such a problem with illegals, in that case? Were it not so porous, (note spelling) there would be none.

There's sea around the UK.

There are boats. People swim the channel with no boats at all. Three coastal patroll boats? Perhaps the RN will file that gaping hole? Nope, successive shortsighted governments have eviscerated the RN. Britannia does not rule the waves, nor has it for a long time. Kiss goodbye to the 350 million a week, because the costs of border security alone will eat more than that.

Crossing by sea in small vessels is not without hazards.

Doesn't have to be a small vessel.

As for the 13th November terrorist attack (Bataclan was only one of the places attacked), according to wikipedia two of the terrorists were Iraqis, two were Belgian citizens, the other five had French citizenship.

All three of the Bataclan attackers were French citizens. You are flailing. Even were there no Schengen, they could still act. All 9 perpetrators were EU nationals as was their mastermind.

And another thing, EU nationals amongst them who fought in Syria were able to get back into Europe and cross it with guns.
That doesn't say much for the Schengen system at all.

Easily done even when there was no Schengen. Why you think it isn't is anyone's guess.

If they hadn't been able to smuggle their guns in, the death toll might have been lower.

What does that have to do with brexit? After all, with brexit in place that won't be a problem, right? Because the UK will be securing it's own borders, right? What the EU may or may not do will be none of your concern, right?

And I can criticise it, because we're still paying towards the budget of the idiots who created it.

Then stop. What's the hold up? Oh, yes, the hold up actually is the UK government. They have already claimed that A50 would be invoked immediately. Then twice put it off until some unspecified time in 2017. By then, the claim will be that they aren't ready yet and so it goes. Either **** or get off the pot, UK.

The UK will stall for time on the basis that it need time to plan a "gracious" Brexit. Which means that the Brexiteers never had a plan in the first place.

 

[Airfix]

Presumably you are for the free movement of all of the above from bristol to london and cardiff to Newcastle?

I am ok with the free movement around Britain of law abiding people, but don't we have prisons to take away the freedom of those who are not law abiding ?

I do not want drugs, guns, nuclear materials, or other dangerous contraband to be able to move freely about either.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I believe the idea is that if only the UK government could subsidise the shipbuilding industry enough then it could compete on the world stage. We'll end up spending billions, tens of billions even, to support a 19th century industry in the face of economic inevitability..

If the government was capable of such largesse, I would prefer to see it invested in the national infrastructure and/or the industries of the future but that's just me.

It seems that there is a section of the left wing who seems to want to return to the industries of the 1950's (coal mining, shipbuilding and so on)

Shipbuilding isn't a 19th Century industry, it died in the UK because of the usual combination of Union job demarcation and management short sighted greed and lack of investment.

 

[abaddon]

They can't afford any more, there has just been another delay in placing orders for the next batch of RN Frigates to save money. If they don't place the orders soon the yard on the Clyde that was supposed to get the order might have to close when the Carriers are finushed and we won't have a yard capable of building them anyway.
Maybe building warships for us could be an EU bargaining chip.

Trade deal with India, perhaps? China?

Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest of respect for the professionalism of the UK armed forces and the sterling job they have done under the ever decreasing budget allowed to them, but when the inevitable cuts arrive, the military are always first to feel the chilly blade. It's been happening for years, decades, even. But even they cannot perform the miracle of loaves and fishes with a diminishing budget.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I am ok with the free movement around Britain of law abiding people, but don't we have prisons to take away the freedom of those who are not law abiding ?

I do not want drugs, guns, nuclear materials, or other dangerous contraband to be able to move freely about either.

Im not following your logic.

The Eu has prisons too. So thats not the difference.

Why do you believe we need borders between Brussels and paris to prevent things but not between Cardiff and Newcastle? Whats the difference?

 

[abaddon]

Im not following your logic.

The Eu has prisons too. So thats not the difference.

Why do you believe we need borders between Brussels and paris to prevent things but not between Cardiff and Newcastle? Whats the difference?

That would not happen inside the Empire, surely?