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JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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LSSBB said:
From 40 medical experts.
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No. It was 40 plus medical witnesses. I was never sure why he chose to state it that way. Possibly 40 was as high as he could count (all his fingers and toes twice -- after that he lost track), or maybe he just thought 40 plus sounded more impressive than 41.
 
steveupson said:
Keeping a car going15 miles per hour in a straight line, for eight seconds, while under fire is probably a lot more difficult than you think it is. My guess is that it would require some special training. It's not the kind of thing that's a natural reaction. For instance, Jackie climbed out the back of the car before she was physically restrained by people walking behind the limo.

This and the six posts following were moved from a general thread.
Posted By: zooterkin
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Clint Hill was on the left front of the running board of the Secret Service limo traveling immediately behind the Presidential limo at the start of the shooting. He was on the driver's side of the car.

You can see him in this photo, wearing sunglasses (ignore the text, which is wrong).

http://surftofind.com/witnes22321.jpg

This photo was taken at approximately frame Z255 of the Zapruder film - just about three seconds before the head shot.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z255.jpg

There was NO ONE walking alongside the limo during the shooting. Secret Service Agent Clint Hill jumped off the follow-up car and raced to the Presidential limo, but couldn't get there in time. He barely got aboard the limo at all, as it was starting to speed up as he grasped the rear handhold.

You can see some of that in this (Marie Muchmore film):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMdreKlLhJY

And here (Orville Nix film):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU4mAVCprAU

In both, Hill enters the frame from the right side of the frame, from the follow-up car.

Hank
 
Beanbag said:
Dealey Plaza is smaller than a football field.
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Perhaps you meant to say the patch of Elm Street where the entire shooting took place is less than the length of a football field.

But Dealey Plaza is quite larger than a football field.

The distance from the rifle in the sixth floor window to the head at the time of the head shot is 265.3 feet...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0158a.htm

Mr. SPECTER - I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. 902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.
Major ANDERSON - I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.

As noted, the black car in the aerial photo is roughly halfway down Elm Street. The distance to the overpass at the time of the head shot was measured, and found to be roughly that distance between the rifle and JFK (268.6 feet).

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0066b.htm

Last time I walked it off, the football fields I'm familiar with measured 120 yards - or 360 feet, counting both end zones. The length of Elm Street between Houston Street and the overpass is over 500 feet long.

Dealey Plaza is a triangular patch of land comprising the area between the overpass on the South, Houston Street on the north, and Elm and Commerce Streets on the West and East (and the land just outside those streets). Main Street runs right down the middle of Dealey Plaza.


Beanbag said:
Fifth floor window shooting DOWN.
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Not to be too picky, but it's actually the sixth floor. Second floor from the top. The building has seven floors in total.

That's why this place is named the way it is:
http://www.jfk.org/

:D

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
HSienzant, I took your advice and bought the 26 volumes. When I saw the Rydberg drawings, I saw that a small bullet hole on the back of Kennedy's skull was located near the External occipital protuberance, and realized that that hole was too low to have exited out of the top-right side of the head. They even drew him leaning over during the headshot when he obviously isn't in the Zapruder film. I then burned the volumes because they were obviously garbage.
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Actually, I told you to look it up online, and informed you "you won't have to spend a friggin' penny" to purchase the volumes. You're not summarizing my advice accurately.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11475643&postcount=1322

If you actually read the volumes, you'd find that those drawings were, as testified to by Dr. Humes, who conducted the autopsy, schematic in nature:

Commander HUMES - I must state these drawings are in part schematic. The artist had but a brief period of some 2 days to prepare these. He had no photographs from which to work, and had to work under our description, verbal description, of what we had observed.
Mr. SPECTER - Would it be helpful to the artist, in redefining the drawings if that should become necessary, to have available to him the photographs or X-rays of the President?
Commander HUMES - If it were necessary to have them absolutely true to scale. I think it would be virtually impossible for him to do this without the photographs.

You could find that information in the second volume of the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence. Right here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0180a.htm

If you actually bought them, you wasted your money, but not for the reason you think. When I bought them in the early 1980's, they weren't available online. They are available online at present - as I pointed out previously.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/contents_jfk.htm

I also warned you to "Stop getting your education on this subject through a conspiracy filter". But as you're still just repeating conspiracy nonsense, I suspect you are still getting your info from conspiracy books and websites. Including the claim you make above.

You won't learn the truth until you actually start reading the first-person eyewitness testimony, and the expert testimony.

Hank
 
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traxy said:
The cowlick is near the EOP. They are maybe 3 or 4 inches apart.

IIRC, the autopsy had the headwound above and to the right of the EOP, which means you're splitting hairs over an inch or so.
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And the cowlick is above the EOP.

And, as you note, the autopsy report and Dr. Humes testimony put the entry wound above and to the right of the EOP:

Commander HUMES - The second wound was found in the right posterior portion of the scalp. This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, and slightly above the external occipital protuberance which is a bony prominence situated in the posterior portion of everyone's skull. This wound was then 2 1/2 centimeters to the right and slightly above that point.

Conspiracy theorists like to pretend there's a greater conflict here than there actually is.

Hank
 
above and to the right
above and to the right
above and to the right
above and to the right
 
MicahJava said:
You have to believe in at least two bullets that went down and then went up. The bullet that pierced near the EOP area of the head and the bullet that pierced his back. I can not see how people ever accepted the "cowlick" entrance wound. It looks like a dried drop of blood or some minor scalp injury.
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You're making a classic conspiracy theorist mistake by assuming that Kennedy was sitting straight up and facing completely forward at the time of the shooting. The trajectories look different when the pictures and x-rays are taken when JFK's body is lying flat on its back on a table versus when Kennedy was riding in a car and reacting to the sound of the first shot for the first time he was hit and reacting to his throat wound for the head shot.

I asked you in another post about your problems with the head wound and a citation for where you're getting your information. This is a list of of pathologists that have examined either John Kennedy's body or the photos and x-rays taken at his autopsy.

Dr. James Humes
Dr. J. Thornton Boswell
Dr. Pierre Finck
Dr. John Coe
Dr. Joseph Davis
Dr. George Loquvam
Dr. Charles Petty
Dr. Earl Rose
Dr. Werner Spitz
Dr. Cyril Wecht
Dr. James Weston
Dr. William Carnes
Dr. Russell Fisher
Dr. Russell Morgan
Dr. Alan Mortiz
Dr. Robert McMeekin
Dr. Richard Lindenberg
Dr. Fred Hodges

Every single one of these pathologists agree that all the damage to Kennedy's head was caused by one bullet traveling through JFK's head from the rear to an exit on the right front of his head. Even Cyril Wecht, who believes that there was a bullet fired at JFK from the front, admits that there's no evidence for it and so the bullet from the rear must have conveniently hidden all evidence of a frontal hit.

Can you link to any sources that calls into question the findings of the above pathologists?
 
MicahJava said:
HSienzant, I took your advice and bought the 26 volumes. When I saw the Rydberg drawings, I saw that a small bullet hole on the back of Kennedy's skull was located near the External occipital protuberance, and realized that that hole was too low to have exited out of the top-right side of the head. They even drew him leaning over during the headshot when he obviously isn't in the Zapruder film. I then burned the volumes because they were obviously garbage.
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If one error (which HSienzant has shown wasn't even an error) is enough for you to burn a book, how have ever gotten past the first page of ninety-nine percent of conspiracy books without having fire fighters on call 24/7?
 
cmikes said:
You're making a classic conspiracy theorist mistake by assuming that Kennedy was sitting straight up and facing completely forward at the time of the shooting. The trajectories look different when the pictures and x-rays are taken when JFK's body is lying flat on its back on a table versus when Kennedy was riding in a car and reacting to the sound of the first shot for the first time he was hit and reacting to his throat wound for the head shot.

I asked you in another post about your problems with the head wound and a citation for where you're getting your information. This is a list of of pathologists that have examined either John Kennedy's body or the photos and x-rays taken at his autopsy.

Dr. James Humes
Dr. J. Thornton Boswell
Dr. Pierre Finck
Dr. John Coe
Dr. Joseph Davis
Dr. George Loquvam
Dr. Charles Petty
Dr. Earl Rose
Dr. Werner Spitz
Dr. Cyril Wecht
Dr. James Weston
Dr. William Carnes
Dr. Russell Fisher
Dr. Russell Morgan
Dr. Alan Mortiz
Dr. Robert McMeekin
Dr. Richard Lindenberg
Dr. Fred Hodges

Every single one of these pathologists agree that all the damage to Kennedy's head was caused by one bullet traveling through JFK's head from the rear to an exit on the right front of his head. Even Cyril Wecht, who believes that there was a bullet fired at JFK from the front, admits that there's no evidence for it and so the bullet from the rear must have conveniently hidden all evidence of a frontal hit.

Can you link to any sources that calls into question the findings of the above pathologists?
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Wow, a LN EOP theorist. You can tell how that trajectory is ridiculous just by looking at the Z film. That is also shown by how quickly the cowlick theory was cobbled together. Also, it's a little hard to tell without the brain to examine.
 
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traxy said:
The cowlick is near the EOP. They are maybe 3 or 4 inches apart.

IIRC, the autopsy had the headwound above and to the right of the EOP, which means you're splitting hairs over an inch or so.
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The autopsy facesheet shows the wound on the same level as the ears, right by the EOP. That's a difference of a solid four inches. And the cowlick drop of blood (perhaps that photograph was chosen over the ones that were disappeared because it was so deliciously deceptive) on the photograph isn't the same size as the autopsy report says it was. You are effectively accusing the doctors of not knowing how to use a ruler. My reluctance accept these four-inch-mistakes by trained professionals is why I don't think anybody can trust the autopsy photograph of the back very much. Is there any witness, even an arguably coerced one, who handled the body and placed the wound on the cowlick?

And also, what's with the F8 photo? You can see fairly clearly that the light is reflecting off the edge of the bone around the hole in the skull. It's a hole, not a little splotch like the cowlick photo. Take all the context away, like how the photograph was originally described as portraying the small hole on the back of the head, and I don't see how F8 (actually two photographs) could be anything other than the EOP wound.
 
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MicahJava said:
Wow, a LN EOP theorist. You can tell how that trajectory is ridiculous just by looking at the Z film. That is also shown by how quickly the cowlick theory was cobbled together. Also, it's a little hard to tell without the brain to examine.
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Er... No... You can tell from the Z film that a shot on the back of the head, causes massive ejecta exactly where the autopsy describes.

All that seems to be at question is your judgement of when the bullet hits, and how the back of the head aligns to the TSBD.

I would ask you to look again, but you burned your copy of the autopsy, so you have shown you have no interest in questioning your preconceived conclusions.
 
MicahJava said:
Wow, a LN EOP theorist. You can tell how that trajectory is ridiculous just by looking at the Z film. That is also shown by how quickly the cowlick theory was cobbled together. Also, it's a little hard to tell without the brain to examine.
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Hmmm.... More than a dozen pathologists that collectively have more than a century's worth of experience versus some random person on the internet that refuses to cite any sources so apparently is operating purely on personal incredulity.

Sorry, I think I'm going to go with the people that have actual experience. Do you think you'll ever be able to provide any actual evidence of your position, or is just argument by assertion all the way down?

As to examining the brain, we have the pictures and x-rays from the autopsy, there's absolutely no information the brain could impart at this point. And you do know what happened to the brain, right? Or is this another instance where you're deliberately refusing to learn anything?
 
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MicahJava said:
The autopsy facesheet shows the wound on the same level as the ears, right by the EOP. That's a difference of a solid four inches.
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Autopsy face sheets are just a rough approximation of the location of wounds. They are not meant to be taken as the final word on wound placement.

The "blood spot" on the rear of the head photographs matches the location of the head wound on every x-ray. Those photographs and x-rays have been examined by teams of photography experts, anthropologists and forensic pathologists and been proven beyond all doubt to be the authentic unaltered autopsy materials of JFK.
 
traxy said:
Autopsy face sheets are just a rough approximation of the location of wounds. They are not meant to be taken as the final word on wound placement.
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I brought it up because somebody else said they thought the autopsy face sheet matched the cowlick entrance better. So far, nobody has refuted Pat Speer's page which advocates that the F8 autopsy photo shows the EOP wound.

The "blood spot" on the rear of the head photographs matches the location of the head wound on every x-ray. Those photographs and x-rays have been examined by teams of photography experts, anthropologists and forensic pathologists and been proven beyond all doubt to be the authentic unaltered autopsy materials of JFK.
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Traxy, the spot on the X-ray that is supposed to be a hole has the obvious appearance of a fracture. I'm not very familiar with the X-rays, but may I ask what is that hole-like dark object about four inches below the crack?

The cowlick entrance wound has no evidence besides a spot that looks like a dried drop of blood on the scalp. What are the odds that the bullet would just happen to pierce right where the scalp parts the hair? Who handled the body and supports the cowlick entrance?
 
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