Proof of Immortality III

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"Got scared, found religion." That's it. That's all you did.
Also, since I have lost track of the current count, yet a new attempted fringe reset.

We have been treated to this nonsense tale many times already. While Jabba seems to think it is evidence of his epiphany, what he actually describes is "actual research was too much effort so I made stuff up instead". Read back through the various times he has posted this supposed childhood epiphany. Every time it amounts to "couldn't be bothered to figure it out, made crap up instead". If he is, as he claims, of the older persuasion (and I have no reason to dispute that) then he has been entrenched in this baloney for 60+ years. For a considerable part of those years he must have been concealing this from his pastor/priest because no clergy that I know of would give a moments credence to this nonsense, they would dismiss it out of hand.
 
Don't expect much from Jabba this afternoon: I've just seen him on the telly, watching the England-Pakistan ODI in Cardiff. He's sat next to some guy dressed as Luke Skywalker.
 
Your answer betrays more than I think you realize.

Indeed, and I like the crucible analogy. Sparring with critics "to see if we can actually get somewhere in debate" suggests the desire to progress. Jabba doesn't want this. As all his critics have noted in concert, Jabba's tactics are aimed at evading the sorts of things that would progress the debate -- specifically would progress the debate toward a conclusion Jabba's ego can't handle.

As so many fringe claimants have done before him, Jabba's clear purpose is to prolong the debate. Specifically, to prolong his inevitable loss. Toward that end, even the criticism he dismisses as "insults" plays into that. As Oscar Wilde noted, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. As long as Jabba can keep respondents on the hook, he can take ego-soothing comfort in a thread that's all about him. Perceived insults? No problem! It just feeds a martyr complex.

In one of our crucibles of argumentation -- the courtroom -- measures are often put in place to prevent such perpetuation stunts as Jabba employs. The "speedy trial" provisions ostensibly aim at ensuring that a person put in jeopardy of his life, liberty, and property will not long have to endure that jeopardy, and that the matter set against him may be tried and resolved without unnecessary delay. Were Jabba in a courtroom, the opposing counsel would have the prerogative to challenge Jabba's useless repetitions, and a judge would have the power to enjoin him. If Jabba really wants to "spar" in such a way that actually progresses the argument, let him petition for a moderated thread and empower the moderator to curtail his (Jabba's) obvious recalcitrance.
 
Oh come down off the cross.

Indeed, it's been a long time since I've seen so many obvious attempts at emotional manipulation in lieu of actual debate.

We've held your hand and treated you with kid's gloves for years.

Agreed, and in return Jabba has behaved like a spoiled child. Now he's being appropriately treated as one. As Bubba would put it, time for Jabba to go sit in the corner and think about what he's done.

Most egregiously, Jabba has intentionally ignored and avoided his critics. I suspect now he'd like to make us believe it's because they were "insulting" him, but he slipped up and revealed that, at least in some cases, it's because the criticism is too challenging for him. He can't handle it, so he wants to pretend it doesn't exist.

To reinforce that, he has lately urged his critics to write shorter and simpler posts. He's begging his critics to write posts he can more easily refute because he can't deal with the actual refutations. In the Shroud thread he took to rewriting the debate on his own terms in his own venue. He edited the debate so that in his mind he won points he hadn't won in real life. He's trying to do the same thing here, only in a different way. He's trying to get his critics to play along with the "effective debate" on this point that he has scripted out in his mind. Then he uses emotional blackmail to get his critics to play along.

Rather than 'effective debate," Jabba's approach bears a far more cognizable resemblance to ordinary ego reinforcement. He doesn't want to spar with skeptics to see if an effective debate emerges. He wants to spar with skeptics in order to draw the willing subset of those critics into a construct where his prior academic failures are redressed and his ongoing religious and pseudo-intellectual fervor have some apparent toehold in reality. And then prolong that construct as long as possible.

"Got scared, found religion." That's it. That's all you did.

Indeed, no great spiritual or intellectual epiphany here. Religion assuages fear of death by promising eternal life. But it requires faith, which is hard to come by. Skeptics erode faith, so it's vital that skeptics be shown as irrational, shallow, and short-sighted -- or conversely, secretly in agreement with him. Then "holistic thinking" seems outwardly less like the pure speculation and wishiness it actually is.
 
Accurately describing what Jabba has been doing in this forum for the last several years can only be taken as an insult because what Jabba has been doing in this forum for the last several years is an insult to every poster who has tried to have a sensible discussion with him.
 
Accurately describing what Jabba has been doing in this forum for the last several years can only be taken as an insult because what Jabba has been doing in this forum for the last several years is an insult to every poster who has tried to have a sensible discussion with him.
A sensible discussion with him is not possible.
 
Don't expect much from Jabba this afternoon: I've just seen him on the telly, watching the England-Pakistan ODI in Cardiff. He's sat next to some guy dressed as Luke Skywalker.


England lose by four wickets; I blame Jabba.
 
England lose by four wickets; I blame Jabba.
Well yeah, without his intervention what would the chances be of England losing by exactly that spread, on this day, against that particular opponent? You can't predict that, therefore there must be some supernatural influence in order for it to have happened. P(E|H), "holistic thinking" and I'll be back.
 
What were the chances that Lewis Hamilton would have a bad start and be down to 6th from pole? Today? In Monza? And that Nico Rosberg would get a good start and lead the race from second place on the grid? Surely the chance of Pascal Werhlein having an oil leak precisely on lap 28 rather than any other lap means that something suspicious must be happening - and to have all this occurring on the same day that San Marino lost to Azerbaijan by a goal to nil in soccer - P(E|H) must be unimaginably small and I'll be back....
 
Well yeah, without his intervention what would the chances be of England losing by exactly that spread, on this day, against that particular opponent? You can't predict that, therefore there must be some supernatural influence in order for it to have happened. P(E|H), "holistic thinking" and I'll be back.

You forgot the strawman. B minus.
 
What, exactly, is your hobby? 1) Is it philosophizing about the metaphysical? 2) Is it sparring with a group of atheists to sharpen your rhetoric? 3) Is it engaging in critical thinking about subjective feelings? 4) Is it spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, o our Lord and Savior, through whom we have eternal life?

Because you're not really doing any of those.

LL,
-Re
1) Yes.
2) It's sparring with a group of atheists to see if we can actually get somewhere in debate.3) To some extent.
4) No.

Your answer betrays more than I think you realize. An argument is not a sparring exercise, it is a crucible. One must be willing to recognize criticism and adapt or abandon one's position. By admitting to sparring, you seem to say that your position is unchangeable. To you, it is a game of somehow keeping your ideas alive in the face of criticism. That's just ... not very good.
LL,
- I see your point -- "sparring" is the wrong word.
- I certainly have a lot riding on our competition here. As explained before, a belief in some kind of immortality has been extremely important to me -- and, I would hate to lose it now. IOW, losing this fight is hardly acceptable to me, and I am clearly prone to discounting/ignoring/rejecting antithetical evidence...
- But, I am gritting my teeth and trying to face up to the evidence -- and so far, as far as I can tell, I still strongly (99%) believe I'm right...

- So, this isn't a sparring session; it's a real fight -- though, there probably won't be any knockout.
- Most likely, if it doesn't end in a draw, it will be decided on points.
 
I see your point -- "sparring" is the wrong word.

And below you tell us the right word is "real fight," but you have yet to engage in a real fight in any of your threads. You simply run away from disagreement and try to find a way to blame it on your critics.

I certainly have a lot riding on our competition here. As explained before, a belief in some kind of immortality has been extremely important to me -- and, I would hate to lose it now. IOW, losing this fight is hardly acceptable to me, and I am clearly prone to discounting/ignoring/rejecting antithetical evidence...

Yes, we get it. You're emotionally invested in one outcome of this debate to the point of total disbelief that there's any way you could possibly be wrong. Given that depth of irrational attachment, please explain why anyone should attempt to engage you on an intellectual level. Why should your audience simply not write you off as the crackpot you have essentially now admitted to be?

But, I am gritting my teeth and trying to face up to the evidence --

No.

That is the one thing you aren't doing. You're literally doing everything else but paying attention to your fatal errors. It's been a very long time since I've seen someone so desperate not to debate his point. You deploy every excuse and rhetorical stunt under the sun to excuse yourself from any intellectual responsibility.

and so far, as far as I can tell, I still strongly (99%) believe I'm right...

How deluded can you get? And yes, that's an absolutely serious question. If you interpret this four-year-and-counting travesty as success on your part, then you are seriously deluded, as in please seek help. This is not mentally healthy behavior.

So, this isn't a sparring session; it's a real fight...

...he said, backpedaling frantically. Of course it's just repetitious sparring. If it stops being sparring then you have to face up to your inability to prove your beliefs, and you've told us you cannot bear that. So you perpetuate the debate in its present form even if it makes you look like a crackpot. You can always write off those characterizations as mean-spirited skepticism, but you can't let the debate finish on its merits. Because then you lose.

Most likely, if it doesn't end in a draw, it will be decided on points.

You lost a long time ago. Just as you lost your Shroud thread -- by your own admission -- long before you finally abandoned it. This thread is presently in the same state your Shroud thread was in for literally years: the period in which you keep plugging mindlessly ahead and try to find a way to blame your critics for your incompetence.
 
LL,
- I see your point -- "sparring" is the wrong word.
- I certainly have a lot riding on our competition here. As explained before, a belief in some kind of immortality has been extremely important to me -- and, I would hate to lose it now. IOW, losing this fight is hardly acceptable to me, and I am clearly prone to discounting/ignoring/rejecting antithetical evidence...
- But, I am gritting my teeth and trying to face up to the evidence -- and so far, as far as I can tell, I still strongly (99%) believe I'm right...

- So, this isn't a sparring session; it's a real fight -- though, there probably won't be any knockout.
- Most likely, if it doesn't end in a draw, it will be decided on points.

As far as I remember, points aren't awarded for baseless assertion and refusal to address rebuttal.
 
- I certainly have a lot riding on our competition here. As explained before, a belief in some kind of immortality has been extremely important to me -- and, I would hate to lose it now. IOW, losing this fight is hardly acceptable to me, and I am clearly prone to discounting/ignoring/rejecting antithetical evidence...

In other words, you are asking people to debate a belief, rather than a theory or fact. That would be impossible, given your emotional dependence on the belief in question.
 
And the responses I made to it were similar to previous responses I've made to previous versions.

How about responding to my responses this time?

Dave,
- I'll try to figure out to which responses I haven't responded.

So your existence is the result of a long series of events, just like everything else...
Dave,
- This is our Mount Rainier issue, and -- I think -- the critical issue. That is, is the likelihood of my particular existence an appropriate entry for P(E|H)? So far, I still think that my estimates for P(H), P(~H) and P(E|~H) are above repute -- though, P(E|~H) is pretty complicated and might be slightly off the mark.
- You and I have discussed this issue through numerous posts, and are probably at a stale mate. In my next post to you, I'll try to summarize my argument for my particular existence being an appropriate entry for P(E|H).
 
That is, is the likelihood of my particular existence an appropriate entry for P(E|H)?

No, it isn't. It has been explained to you numerous times and in numerous ways why it isn't appropriate. In response you just keep insisting that you must be right. That's delusional.

So far, I still think that my estimates for P(H), P(~H) and P(E|~H) are above repute.

In what alternate universe? You can pick your priors P(H) and P(~H) any way you like, although the intent is that they be rational proposals. But having done that, you may not also just pull the likelihoods P(E|~H) etc. out of your kiester -- especially your flagrantly made-up numbers -- and demand that it must prove something.

Again, this has been explained to you numerous times and in numerous ways. You simply don't care. You desperately want to believe that your own immortality is an objective, provable thing, so you imagine whatever you have to in order to preserve that delusion.

You and I have discussed this issue through numerous posts, and are probably at a stale mate.

No, there is no stalemate. You proposed to prove immortality mathematically, and you have abjectly and quite obviously failed to do so. You already admitted you don't read and respond to the most challenging of your critics. There can be no claim of stalemate as long as you do that, because you admit to not addressing the strongest arguments against you, so this is just more self-delusion. You can't bear to lose the debate, so you ignore the parts of it that you confess defeat you. Then you imagine that you have somehow still made a good showing. Seriously, if you really believe this then you need to see someone. This is not mentally healthy behavior.

In my next post to you, I'll try to summarize my argument for my particular existence being an appropriate entry for P(E|H).

NO. DO NOT SIMPLY KEEP REPEATING YOUR CLAIMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Your argument was refuted long ago and remains refuted no matter how many times you try to reset it. Unless you can remedy the fatal flaws in it, which after four years you are manifestly unwilling to do, then you are simply continuing to act on your delusions.
 
In my next post to you, I'll try to summarize my argument for my particular existence being an appropriate entry for P(E|H).

You could have done that in that very post. But no. You promise to do it in some imaginary future post. As usual, that future imaginary post will never happen for the simple reason that you have no intention of composing it whatsoever.
 
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