JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[Tomtomkent]

Is it the scene in JFK where Jim Garrison and Lou Ivons are test cycling the Carcano in the snipers nest? Ivons says the minimum amount of time needed to cycle and aim the weapon is 2.3 seconds, which Garrison promptly does in less time.

One of many scenes that makes me glad I saw this on vhs and not in the cinema, where shouting at the screen is frowned upon.

 

[MicahJava]

Back to acoustics again?

I'll make it easy, Clint Hill said the first shot he the President.

Okay, good. Most would say that the President reacted to the first loud shot by smiling and waving, but fortunately you realize the problems with that.

Nope, Elm Street swings out giving Oswald a better view, then it's point and shoot. His second shot was probably high.

I'm assuming you believe that only three shots were fired. If two bullets can explain all of the damage to JFK and Connally, then you have an extra bullet. Since you seem to accept that the first shot hit Kennedy, was the missed shot slightly before or slightly after the head shot?

Except they weren't close at all. Plenty of time between the neck and the head shots. Even time to fire a fourth had it come to it.

Are you advocating that missing shot happening at Z285 like Bob Harris says?

Not a fact, just a witness you choose to believe over the rest who undermine your theory.

I think we have a big enough witness sampling to get a good idea of how things happened.

Clearly it wasn't.

This assumes that Oswald brought the rifle in dissembled, which nobody really can say. Even so, he could reassemble the rifle quickly, and practiced doing so, and would no have needed the scope as the range was short.


The two key members of the Secret Service detail swear all three rounds hit the occupants of the car: Sam Kinney, who was the driver of the following vehicle, and Emery Roberts. The Warren Commission never asked them to testify and that seems to be a shame because if it is true then there is nothing left to talk.

This is from the 6th Floor Museum, at the 33:30 mark they discuss the shooting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmCEx-f0dfI

This video is invaluable. Former Secret Service agents Gerald Blaine and Clint Hill provide sober and practical explanations for many of the so-called mysteries of that day.

Oh wow. So you're saying Oswald assembled the rifle long before the assassination, found time to secretly practice with it, and never disassembled it even when sneaking it into the TSBD? I thought there would be more resistance than that.

 

[MicahJava]

You could have just admitted you didn't know the source for the 2.3-second figure you cited, and that you didn't have a source for your claim that it was a "generally agreed upon" figure. You didn't need to double-down on the "because I say so" argument and repeat yet another point of conspiraloon lore: the allegedly unusable sights.

I do believe that something akin to 2.3 seconds is cited in the Warren Commission report. I could dig up the exact citation, but all of it is POINTLESS if nobody agrees that the last two shots were close together. There are better things to argue about.

 

[MicahJava]

Gee, I have forty-two unnamed experts who say your unnamed experts are wrong. You still owe us the list of allegedly expert snipers who allegedly say the shot is impossible or unreproducible. Is your entire argument going to be anonymous hearsay?

I don't want to buy the actual book for one friggin citation.

Yeah, that whole thing is just a lot of people offering opinions with nothing to recommend it except .. their opinions. There is no dearth of people who seem to know with surgical precision what should have happened, would have happened, could have happened, or can't have happened. They all have theories and a book to sell.

Okay. Accuse the author of being a lying sell-out (despite spending hours of their free time on jfkassasinationforum.net) rather than addressing the argument at hand.

 

[JayUtah]

I do believe that something akin to 2.3 seconds is cited in the Warren Commission report.

Did you get the figure from the Warren Report? You claim this is a "generally agreed upon" figure. What is your source for this claim of general agreement?

 

[JayUtah]

I don't want to buy the actual book for one friggin citation.

If you are unwilling to do the necessary research then you do not deserve the credibility you're asking for.

...rather than addressing the argument at hand.

The argument at hand, as usual, is supported by nothing more than your say-so, and the hearsay-so of others whose authority is suspect. You complain that no one is persuaded by your argument and you suggest this is because your critics are pig-headed. Have you considered that your shoddy research is the reason?

 

[MicahJava]

Am I right in remembering that you've never been to Dealey Plaza? You keep making all these assertions essentially on your own (non-existent) authority.

Please provide a shooting sequence, with corresponding Zapruder frames.

 

[MicahJava]

If you are unwilling to do the necessary research then you do not deserve the credibility you're asking for.



The argument at hand, as usual, is supported by nothing more than your say-so, and the hearsay-so of others whose authority is suspect. You complain that no one is persuaded by your argument and you suggest this is because your critics are pig-headed. Have you considered that your shoddy research is the reason?

So you're saying that the MC should have been accurate enough when freshly assembled?

 

[JayUtah]

So you're saying...

Don't put words in my mouth. Address the points I raised.

 

[JayUtah]

Please provide a shooting sequence, with corresponding Zapruder frames.

No, I withdraw the statement. By "place the ... shots" I mistakenly took you to mean spatially, not chronologically. A credible judgment about the spatial aspects of the shot would require experience in Dealey Plaza itself, hence my challenge was misapplied. My apologies.

 

[MicahJava]

Don't put words in my mouth. Address the points I raised.

Well, I linked to some excerpts from the book regarding the need to zero-in a rifle with the first shot and how the first shot on a newly-assembled rifle would be very inaccurate.

 

[JayUtah]

Well, I linked to some excerpts from the book regarding the need to zero-in a rifle with the first shot and how the first shot on a newly-assembled rifle would be very inaccurate.

Now address the points I raised regarding such sources.

 

[MicahJava]

Finally an actual discussion that makes sense.

Other than multiple witness statements,

Those I'd like to examine further to show that they are actually consistent with the first shot being at 190-224. Just count how many times the witnesses say JFK "slumped over" or "raised his arms" in reaction to the first shot.

and the reaction of the occupants of the car,

No reactions besides them turning their heads in a certain direction. We can analyze that all day, but I think that when you look at the evidence as a whole it will show that any shot in the Z160's is a ghost.

and the reaction of Rosemary Willis.

Gerald Posner interviewed the Willis family, and Phillip Willis said that Rosemary may have stopped because he called out to her. Like I said, very flimsy evidence.

Read John Connally's statements over multiple investigations. They remained completely consistent until his death, and you can map them exactly to his movements in the Zapruder film.

He says he heard a loud noise which he immediately identified as gunfire, and turned rapidly to his right to locate the source (Z160). He didn't get turned far enough to see Kennedy, and started turning back to his left. He got roughly straight in his seat and felt the second shot hit him in the back (Z224). At that point, he turned to his right a second time and shouted "my god they're going to kill us all" (starting around Z240) before collapsing into his wife's lap.

If his initial rapid turn to the right was a reaction to gunfire like he said it was, that puts the first shot a few frames prior to Z160.

John Connally is one of the only witnesses to have studied the Zapruder film to some extent. He chose frame 231 for when he was shot. I happen to agree that frame 222 is more likely when he was first shot (the shoulder jerk, the lapel flap), however others have presented photographic evidence that makes frame 237 a suspect. He also said that perhaps Kennedy was shot at around frame 190. I think he agrees more with my interpretation.

He said in a 6-22-64 interview: "Uh…so…we all more or less straightened up…uh, in the car …uh, I did I know and maybe I should explain that a little bit by sayin’ when you sit for a prolonged period of time as we were, facing one direction acknowledging the crowd why, when you get an opportunity where the crowd thins you kind of shift in the chair and straighten up. We had just done that. I had and I heard this shot and I say shot because I immediately thought it was a shot. And I immediately thought it was a rifle shot."

Connally provided an innocent explanation for why his head turned at Z160. Read what he has said in interviews and testimony throughout the years and I think you'll see that his recollections fit Z190-237 better.

 

[MicahJava]

Now address the points I raised regarding such sources.

You gave no point besides accusing the author of lying and cherry-picking to make a quick buck. I've seen him on the jfkassasinationforum, he's very experienced with firearms and he's very adamant about believing that the first loud shot intentionally missed because the shooter would have to zero-in.

 

[BStrong]

I don't want to buy the actual book for one friggin citation.



Okay. Accuse the author of being a lying sell-out (despite spending hours of their free time on jfkassasinationforum.net) rather than addressing the argument at hand.

The argument is based on a ******** assertion.

Either produce the evidence or withdraw the claim.

Where is your evidence for what "the best snipers in the world" have to say about LHO's marksmanship?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

So you're saying...?

I have a question: What are you saying?

It's all well and good to nitpick nitpicks with regard to any aspect of the events of the day. You may or may not be aware that, after 50+ years of these exercises in research as well as "research," there is no new ground to cover.

So please cut to the chase. What do you believe happened? Who shot the president? Was there a conspiracy? Please be thorough and account for all physical evidence.

Thank you.

 

[traxy]

Gerald Posner interviewed the Willis family, and Phillip Willis said that Rosemary may have stopped because he called out to her. Like I said, very flimsy evidence.

Rosemary herself says she stopped running because she heard a gunshot. She breaks stride at somewhere around Z175 and immediately looks to the depository.

Connally provided an innocent explanation for why his head turned at Z160.

No, he's always maintained the initial turn to the right was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

His sequence was always that he heard the first shot, turned to his right to locate the source, began turning back to his left, was hit with the second shot once he got roughly straight in his chair, turned to his right a second time to shout out "my god they'll kill us all", and then collapsed in his wife's lap.

2 turns to the right, one at Z160 and one at Z240.

 

[JayUtah]

You gave no point besides accusing the author of lying and cherry-picking to make a quick buck.

No, those are your words, pejorated for effect. Quit trying to shove them into my mouth.

I've seen him on the jfkassasinationforum, he's very experienced with firearms...

He's an amateur small-bore range shooter. He is not a military shooter or a sniper, nor can claim any experience in shooting at moving targets in the field.

...and he's very adamant about believing that the first loud shot intentionally missed because the shooter would have to zero-in.

He can be as adamant as he wants. It's still just one opinion among a zillion armchair investigators.

 

[MicahJava]

I have a question: What are you saying?

It's all well and good to nitpick nitpicks with regard to any aspect of the events of the day. You may or may not be aware that, after 50+ years of these exercises in research as well as "research," there is no new ground to cover.

So please cut to the chase. What do you believe happened? Who shot the president? Was there a conspiracy? Please be thorough and account for all physical evidence.

Thank you.

I just started spending my free time reading about JFK a few months ago. How could I know?

 

[MicahJava]

Rosemary herself says she stopped running because she heard a gunshot. She breaks stride at somewhere around Z175 and immediately looks to the depository.

That's her, at age 26, recalling what happened when she was ten years old a journalist sixteen years after it happened. I think I'd rather trust Phillip.

No, he's always maintained the initial turn to the right was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

His sequence was always that he heard the first shot, turned to his right to locate the source, began turning back to his left, was hit with the second shot once he got roughly straight in his chair, turned to his right a second time to shout out "my god they'll kill us all", and then collapsed in his wife's lap.

No, he himself confirmed that his recollections fit the time when they were near the freeway sign in the Z film.

Connally always thought that he was hit by a second shot. Only when you remove the "first missed shot" does his recollections contradict the SBT.