Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales
- Thread starter Robert Harris
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JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Ah, oops, sorry. Yeah, I had just popped over from a Malbec thread.
What kind of Enfield are you referring to? The No. 1 and 4's I've shot are standard bolt guns except they cock on closing instead of opening.
Ranb
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
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You're right, I am thinking of the straight pull model LE, but the standard LE's just had the cock on close feature. Still faster than a Caracano.
Border Reiver
Philosopher
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I've been rotating the bolt all these years for nothing?
Seriously, the Enfield is a turn bolt design and is considered one of the smoothest designs out there. It's not as strong as the 98 Mauser or its many copies, but it's strong enough for the .303
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MicahJava
Illuminator
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Add on how the scope was so awful that using the iron sights would be better and you'll have a minimum time for accuracy for about 2.3 seconds to bypass your BS.
Of course, this entire argument is POINTLESS if neither of you agree that the last two shots were close together. What is the POINT of arguing about how fast you can work a MC if none of you agree that the last two loud reports were close together?
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MicahJava
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Since there is no evidence for a first loud shot before Z190, and that is acknowledged, it is a tricky task to place the last two shots. Makes perfect sense for them to be close together, sightly before or after the head shot (I think the third one was probably after).
Back to the fact that the the best witness information points to the first loud shot being at Z190-224. I'd like to present another exhibit:
Edward Bauer and seventeen other firearm experts have weighed in on the serious likelihood that the first shot from a newly-assembled MC would be very inaccurate. Edward Bauer uses this information to promote a theory that has Oswald zero-in the MC by intentionally missing the Limousine for his first shot.
https://thefinaltruthjfk.blogspot.com/2015_02_01_archive.html
Unfortunately, this information must be considered along with the superior evidence that there was no first missed shot. If the first shot missed, it was less than 1.5 seconds before another didn't.
Back to the fact that the the best witness information points to the first loud shot being at Z190-224. I'd like to present another exhibit:
Edward Bauer and seventeen other firearm experts have weighed in on the serious likelihood that the first shot from a newly-assembled MC would be very inaccurate. Edward Bauer uses this information to promote a theory that has Oswald zero-in the MC by intentionally missing the Limousine for his first shot.
https://thefinaltruthjfk.blogspot.com/2015_02_01_archive.html
Unfortunately, this information must be considered along with the superior evidence that there was no first missed shot. If the first shot missed, it was less than 1.5 seconds before another didn't.
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Axxman300
Philosopher
Back to acoustics again?
I'll make it easy, Clint Hill said the first shot he the President.
Nope, Elm Street swings out giving Oswald a better view, then it's point and shoot. His second shot was probably high.
Except they weren't close at all. Plenty of time between the neck and the head shots. Even time to fire a fourth had it come to it.
Not a fact, just a witness you choose to believe over the rest who undermine your theory.
Clearly it wasn't.
This assumes that Oswald brought the rifle in dissembled, which nobody really can say. Even so, he could reassemble the rifle quickly, and practiced doing so, and would no have needed the scope as the range was short.
The two key members of the Secret Service detail swear all three rounds hit the occupants of the car: Sam Kinney, who was the driver of the following vehicle, and Emery Roberts. The Warren Commission never asked them to testify and that seems to be a shame because if it is true then there is nothing left to talk.
This is from the 6th Floor Museum, at the 33:30 mark they discuss the shooting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmCEx-f0dfI
This video is invaluable. Former Secret Service agents Gerald Blaine and Clint Hill provide sober and practical explanations for many of the so-called mysteries of that day.
Willy Ekerslike
Scholar
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Darn it, great facts. And all we've got is the WC.
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Willy Ekerslike
Scholar
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Seriously, don't even waste time clicking on the poisonous Daily Mail thing.
Noted from Facebook comments about the 'story' this morning:
"WTF. There were four people in that limo, now suddenly there's six?!"
Guess he thought Nellie was driving?
That's the kind of attention to detail that is the hallmark of CTs.
Noted from Facebook comments about the 'story' this morning:
"WTF. There were four people in that limo, now suddenly there's six?!"
Guess he thought Nellie was driving?
That's the kind of attention to detail that is the hallmark of CTs.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
1. That is a dodge. It has been amply demonstrated that your 2.3 second figure is nonsense. You are flailing around trying to avoid addressing that.
2. Why won't you state from whence you gleaned such a figure? Don't you know where you found it? Why don't you come right out and state where you found such a spurious figure?
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
You could have just admitted you didn't know the source for the 2.3-second figure you cited, and that you didn't have a source for your claim that it was a "generally agreed upon" figure. You didn't need to double-down on the "because I say so" argument and repeat yet another point of conspiraloon lore: the allegedly unusable sights.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Am I right in remembering that you've never been to Dealey Plaza? You keep making all these assertions essentially on your own (non-existent) authority.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Gee, I have forty-two unnamed experts who say your unnamed experts are wrong. You still owe us the list of allegedly expert snipers who allegedly say the shot is impossible or unreproducible. Is your entire argument going to be anonymous hearsay?
Yeah, that whole thing is just a lot of people offering opinions with nothing to recommend it except .. their opinions. There is no dearth of people who seem to know with surgical precision what should have happened, would have happened, could have happened, or can't have happened. They all have theories and a book to sell.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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Re: the scope being off
Could someone who knows comment: I always wondered, Oswald makes his shot and is heading out and throws the rifle in the corner. Could the scope have been knocked out of position when he threw the rifle away?
If that is a possibility, then it is very clear that we can make no conclusions based on the alignment of the scope. Now, we might not be able to, anyway, but if it could have been bumped out of place after the shots were fired, then it is a complete non-starter.
Could someone who knows comment: I always wondered, Oswald makes his shot and is heading out and throws the rifle in the corner. Could the scope have been knocked out of position when he threw the rifle away?
If that is a possibility, then it is very clear that we can make no conclusions based on the alignment of the scope. Now, we might not be able to, anyway, but if it could have been bumped out of place after the shots were fired, then it is a complete non-starter.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
Facts not in evidence.
AFAIK, Edward Bauer is not an expert in the subject matter.
I'm still waiting on your evidence for what "the best snipers in the world" have to say about LHO's marksmanship.
You could buy some credibility here by admitting you pulled that phrase out of your ass.
Other than multiple witness statements, and the reaction of the occupants of the car, and the reaction of Rosemary Willis.
Read John Connally's statements over multiple investigations. They remained completely consistent until his death, and you can map them exactly to his movements in the Zapruder film.
He says he heard a loud noise which he immediately identified as gunfire, and turned rapidly to his right to locate the source (Z160). He didn't get turned far enough to see Kennedy, and started turning back to his left. He got roughly straight in his seat and felt the second shot hit him in the back (Z224). At that point, he turned to his right a second time and shouted "my god they're going to kill us all" (starting around Z240) before collapsing into his wife's lap.
If his initial rapid turn to the right was a reaction to gunfire like he said it was, that puts the first shot a few frames prior to Z160.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
It's very possible given the quality of the optic and mount, although actual examination and testing showed that the mount needed shims to be perfectly zeroed.
In today's world, indestructibility of optics intended for military use is a given, but back then no scope or mount would stand up to hard use/abuse.
Is it the scene in JFK where Jim Garrison and Lou Ivons are test cycling the Carcano in the snipers nest? Ivons says the minimum amount of time needed to cycle and aim the weapon is 2.3 seconds, which Garrison promptly does in less time.
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