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JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Claiming something is "flawed" doesn't make it an unserviceable explanation. Severing the linkage between propositions is how fringe claimants establish the double standard they rely upon to stay in the debate.
Poisoning the well? There is no basis for your comment outside of stating your opinion/personal observation.
The conventional narrative is said to need to meet some arbitrary standard of proof in order to be tenable at all
I did not provide a narrative, so your observation is a non sequitur.
leaving the conspiracy theorist only with the need to find a "flaw" (of which there are many in any explanation of real-world happenstance events) and maybe throw out some speculation for how it "might" have happened. Since the conventional theory has been overthrown, the speculation seems reasonable in contrast.
Reading through these posts, it would be a self-inflicted wound, if I were to casually bring up a "might have happened" to this crowd. All I am doing is sometimes pointing out a flaw or two of those who point out flaws of others since there is some sort of strange bond and hands off policy of those who attempt to debunk... but to say that a speculation is required in order to meet your arbitrary criteria is absurd.


The identified flaws matter only if they give rise to a better explanation that explains not only the flaws but also the straightforward evidence that the conventional narrative already explains -- and does so in a more parsimonious manner.
All you are providing is an opinion that is not founded in the guidelines of this forum or any structured discussion.
No conspiracy theorist has yet done this, which is why the entire field is ignored by serious scholars (Argument from Authority is not attractive). Thus the conventional narrative, amid all its alleged flaws, remains the best explanation.
This may apply if a narrative was an element within the body of discussion, if a flaw is pointed out that you feel is incorrect, then it is your obligation to say why you don't like it. You are not mandated to state a narrative or is anybody else. I read some of your other posts and you historically attempt to subdue a dialog by moving the goal posts just as you did with your response to me. A healthy discussion can take place with minimal sentence structure.

Conspiracy theories fall into two camps on this point. There are those who, like you, deny any obligation to explain anything. They simply note the "flaws" and say that this somehow matters.
Maybe you should post your rules and opinions at the front of this forum, your use of Argumentum ad hominem and ergo decedo does not promote your position and your continued use of a False Dilemma is already worn out.
Then there are those who propose part of a conspiracy theory but neglect to give it any better or more evidentiary explanatory power than the conventional narrative. But through the magic of the false dilemma, they saw the "flaws" in the conventional narrative mean we have to dismiss it outright and then the conspiracy theory must hold by default -- even if it actually has more of the same kinds of "flaws" as those that allegedly doomed the prevailing narrative.
You are the one stating a False Dilemma; what you are accusing me of is by definition the exact opposite of a False Dilemma. Riddle me this, "how can one provide a false dilemma when a choice is not provided?

The only way a conspiracy theory is going to get any traction beyond the fringe is if its proponent can show it to be more parsimonious that all other comers. If you don't want to do that, then you can decide whether you want to be irrelevant or incomplete.
What I highlighted is a perfect case of the false dilemma...
 
Poisoning the well?

No, just noting your conformance to a well established pattern of pseudo-debate. You can either cry about it or rebut it.

There is no basis for your comment outside of stating your opinion/personal observation.

Yes, it is a personal observation noted over a couple decades of debating fringe theories, and as a published skeptic. Lengthy observation is a suitable basis for drawing comparisons and parallels.

I did not provide a narrative, so your observation is a non sequitur.

As I was referring to the conventional narrative, not any narrative you may or may not have provided, your criticism is moot. Next time try actually reading and responding to my argument instead of firing off a knee-jerk irrelevant objection.

All I am doing is sometimes pointing out a flaw or two...

Your error is in pretending that such nit-picking should affect belief. It presumes the conventional narrative must be free of all conceivable flaws in order to be credible or to be the best explanation for the evidence taken at large. If you're not noting flaws in the conventional narrative with the intent of dissuading belief in it, what does it matter if others consider it still the best explanation even with the flaws you note, taken arguendo or at face value?

All you are providing is an opinion that is not founded in the guidelines of this forum...

Straw man. I didn't claim it was in the guidelines of the forum, nor do I suggest the guidelines of the form constitute the entirety of best practices in debate. As first insinuated and now explained, the basis of my characterization is lengthy observation.

...or any structured discussion.

So you're allowed to characterize a reasoned debate while your critics are not?

I read some of your other posts and you historically attempt to subdue a dialog by moving the goal posts just as you did with your response to me.

Poisoning the well? This is the conspiracy section. It's about investigating conspiracy theories. This is the JFK thread. It's about JFK conspiracy theories. It seems you're trying to get some rhetorical mileage about only wanting to have a "dialogue" amidst this clamor of debate over a conspiracy. If you don't want to be part of the pie fight, then that's quite all right; there is a section on history if you want to "dialogue" about the Kennedy assassination outside the conspiracy context. But when you choose to post in the conspiracy section and raise so many of the same points as the conspiracy theorists before you in the thread, you're going to be treated as a conspiracy theorist whether you self-identify that way or not, whether you posit and actual conspiracy theory or not.

Again from my decades debating fringe claimants, I can say the soft entry is fairly common. And people here are attuned well enough to it even to have an acronym JAQing ("Just Asking Questions") for the approach you're taking. Since so many of the "dialogues" that soft entrants want to have eventually wind up advocating conspiracy, the obligation to differentiate yourself from that is yours.

[W]hat you are accusing me of is by definition the exact opposite of a False Dilemma.

Please try to pay attention. I said that conspiracy theorists fall into two camps -- those that merely try to note flaws and those who try to offer an alternative. I said those who posit an alternative formulate it as a false dilemma with the conventional narrative. As you have explicitly declined to provide an alternative, it should be obvious in which camp you fall and therefore whether the accusation of posing a false dilemma was meant to apply to you.

What I highlighted is a perfect case of the false dilemma...

No.

You can supply no alternative. Or you can supply a partially defined alternative. Or you can supply a complete alternative. Explain what important option was left out of that partition.
 
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Oswald also felt the need to take the intact ripped dollar in his wallet on the day he supposedly killed the president.

Who checks their wallet every morning?

More importantly, the stuff that WAS in Oswald's wallet looks like an attempt to live out a fantasy with his fake IDs. The odds are in favor of him stacking his wallet to look like some kind of James Bond in hopes of special treatment if he got caught.

As far as the theater goes, I worked in a movie theater for 2 years. They're dark when the movie is on. How did he plan to match his bill with the mate IN THE DARK?
 
He's just doing what Penn Jillette did, only in an aiming position (compared to what is supposed to have been done in the Sniper's nest, that's not aiming). I've seen this video and I had it in mind when I suggested that LNers could accept that the last two shots were close together if the last shot missed due to Oswald haphazardly cycling and firing without really trying to aim at anything. I'm sure you know the factors that went in to the traditional (minimum) 2.3 seconds estimation (confirmed several times by professionals).
Wrong. He laid 5 rounds on target at circa 700 yards. I know this because I actually communicated with the guy on that very point because of these very claims about JFK. That is a significantly longer range than anything LHO had to do.

Your claim held no water before, but now desiccation is setting in. He isn't simply cycling the action and firing at random. Read this sentence carefully...

He laid 5 rounds on target at 700 yards in less time than Oswald took to lay one out of three.

Now I am pretty sure that there is a reason that CTers don't check these things. It spoils their narrative to actually find things which upset the apple cart. Tough luck to them, reality does not care.

Feel free to contact the guy, he was very polite and correct and willing to respond. Bear in mind, that it was some time ago, so it is possible that his view of such contact may have grown more cynical in the interim. I couldn't say.

But we already know what will actually happen. No contact will be made, only excuses will be made. You prefer the fantasy.


Then add the half $1 bills on the pile of coincidences.

I actually have a torn 5, about 40% of it. I never did anything with it although I could. Why? Because the effort would cost more than 5. Nevertheless, since I possess such a thing, this means I am a spy.

Can you not see the flaw in such bovine reasoning?
 
... A fuller examination of the Myers animation is found here: http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c:animania

Experiments like the discovery channel and computer models like from Dale Myers would be a great place to start any new investigation, however the ones shown in your link does not live up to the standards of people who rightfully pay attention to details.

Man, that was painful. We have to read umpteen paragraphs of gibberish, then the corrections and then a consultation with "an expert" -- his girlfriend the photographer, and Pat still doesn't get it! Conally was not seated on a normal seat. It was a jump seat. He is sitting lower than JFK in the limo. There is no midget. You can easily see it for yourself in the Zapruder film.
 
Who said this?

Did Oswald actually speak to any of the movie theater patrons? Seems like if he was expecting to contact someone, he would have said something to one of them.

I am wondering how one can tell he wad sitting next to people as if to meet them, and, for example, Oswald sitting next to people so a police search might assume he was part of a group, while looking for a man alone. Or if he simply thought he would draw less attention if he sat amongst a cluster of folks.
 
Oh and on the subject of the dollar bill... Given the groups Oswald has associations with, and the political climate of the time, given for example Pro-Castro Cubans had reasons to be wary of Anti Castro Cubans, and the FBI, and Anti Castro Cubans had reasons to be wary of the Pro Castro Cubans, and both groups had activities they would consider private if not secret... How does one assume what simple measures are "too" secure for them?

The torn dolls bill is (literally) Boy Scout level stuff. But it works. So how do we objectively declare such a measure too good for any group other than spies?

If we could divine it was ONLY there to meet a contact, under what objective measure could we discount regular political activism, let alone illicit numbers games, homosexual cottages, or any other group in which discretion might be virtuous?
 
[IMGw=640]http://image.newsinc.com/30578590.sfxl.jpg[/IMGw][/QUOTE]

Hilarious!
Whom are you trying to fool?
Via Google Images, I found the real source of that pic of a torn dollar bill.
http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news...riends-reunite-today-at-el-cid-bar-aft/nqycx/
OK, so maybe that was just meant to illustrate your point. I'm not sure how you identify the bill with the pencil mark in one document specifically to one of the half-bills in the first, but none of this is important.
 
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Tenuous speculation? Most who try to rebut the dollar bills do so while acknowledging that they were significant in some way. Because they know that it's too much to be a coincidence.


I don't know whom you are referring to, but as far as the discussion here goes, seems to me only Axxman300 offered a couple alternative lines of speculation. But he also said this:
"It's like your dollar bill ploy, it has nothing to do with the shooting, it does not remove Oswald from the sniper's nest, nor does it clear him in any way as the shooter. You can play parlor games all you want but the ballistics don't lie."

Here are the other reactions on this forum:

Tomtomkent:
Now to your Dollar Bill.
Do you have evidence that ties it to the assassination?

Wolrab:
Maybe Oswald had a ripped dollar bill because it was ripped and needed to be taped. It is not like he was swimming in money.

Abaddon:
I actually have a torn 5, about 40% of it. I never did anything with it although I could. Why? Because the effort would cost more than 5. Nevertheless, since I possess such a thing, this means I am a spy.

And now me. So he had a torn dollar bill. BFD!
 
No, just noting your conformance to a well established pattern of pseudo-debate. You can either cry about it or rebut it.



Yes, it is a personal observation noted over a couple decades of debating fringe theories, and as a published skeptic. Lengthy observation is a suitable basis for drawing comparisons and parallels.



As I was referring to the conventional narrative, not any narrative you may or may not have provided, your criticism is moot. Next time try actually reading and responding to my argument instead of firing off a knee-jerk irrelevant objection.



Your error is in pretending that such nit-picking should affect belief. It presumes the conventional narrative must be free of all conceivable flaws in order to be credible or to be the best explanation for the evidence taken at large. If you're not noting flaws in the conventional narrative with the intent of dissuading belief in it, what does it matter if others consider it still the best explanation even with the flaws you note, taken arguendo or at face value?



Straw man. I didn't claim it was in the guidelines of the forum, nor do I suggest the guidelines of the form constitute the entirety of best practices in debate. As first insinuated and now explained, the basis of my characterization is lengthy observation.



So you're allowed to characterize a reasoned debate while your critics are not?



Poisoning the well? This is the conspiracy section. It's about investigating conspiracy theories. This is the JFK thread. It's about JFK conspiracy theories. It seems you're trying to get some rhetorical mileage about only wanting to have a "dialogue" amidst this clamor of debate over a conspiracy. If you don't want to be part of the pie fight, then that's quite all right; there is a section on history if you want to "dialogue" about the Kennedy assassination outside the conspiracy context. But when you choose to post in the conspiracy section and raise so many of the same points as the conspiracy theorists before you in the thread, you're going to be treated as a conspiracy theorist whether you self-identify that way or not, whether you posit and actual conspiracy theory or not.

Again from my decades debating fringe claimants, I can say the soft entry is fairly common. And people here are attuned well enough to it even to have an acronym JAQing ("Just Asking Questions") for the approach you're taking. Since so many of the "dialogues" that soft entrants want to have eventually wind up advocating conspiracy, the obligation to differentiate yourself from that is yours.



Please try to pay attention. I said that conspiracy theorists fall into two camps -- those that merely try to note flaws and those who try to offer an alternative. I said those who posit an alternative formulate it as a false dilemma with the conventional narrative. As you have explicitly declined to provide an alternative, it should be obvious in which camp you fall and therefore whether the accusation of posing a false dilemma was meant to apply to you.



No.

You can supply no alternative. Or you can supply a partially defined alternative. Or you can supply a complete alternative. Explain what important option was left out of that partition.

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 & rule 12
 
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Lol. Some of the best snipers in the world have said that they could not replicate those shots, and they were alledgedly made with a dollar store with the most defective scope ever. I'm not aware anybody replicating the shots. I know of one experiment in which an olympic sniper accomplished something similar... from a height of the third floor of the school book depository.

If you'd like to cite anything other than hearsay on what "the best snipers" have to say I'd be interested in reading it.

There is no such thing as "Olympic Snipers."

Howard Donahue replicated LHO's work, although it led him to a bad conclusion that required him to crowbar a theory into the facts in evidence that was just as badly thought out as the other CT ******** that gets posted here.

Please refer to my earlier post on this subject:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9486646&postcount=3934
 
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There is absolutely zero relationship or linkage in recognizing something flawed and the requirement to develop an alternative narrative; what you described is nothing more than an Appeal to Authority and Experience, I choose not to invoke those fallacies.

I didn't assert any such thing.

The original premise was that someone that doesn't accept one or more of the usual CT claptrap is doing so because they believe what the government feeds them.

I pointed out that in some instances individuals with training and experience in certain subject matter will come to their own conclusions based on their T & E.

Bolded: as opposed to the fallacies you do invoke?
 
Dollar bills as recognition sign? great tradework!

Or like a particular incident I was party to, an imbecile pulled money out or their pocket and tore some bills in two and threw them on the ground to demonstrate how little money meant to them (in defense of being caught shoplifting...) the arresting officers weren't impressed either.
 
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Lol. Some of the best snipers in the world have said that they could not replicate those shots, and they were alledgedly made with a dollar store with the most defective scope ever. I'm not aware anybody replicating the shots. I know of one experiment in which an olympic sniper accomplished something similar... from a height of the third floor of the school book depository.

Which of the best snipers in the world have actually said that? Please don't quote Carlos Hathcock from the Kill Zone book, since there is no evidence at all that a recreation at Quantico ever took place.

As far as no one ever replicating the shots, I think you know better. Even a cursory glance at Google will turn up a dozen shooters who've matched or bettered Oswalds shooting performance.
 
Which of the best snipers in the world have actually said that? Please don't quote Carlos Hathcock from the Kill Zone book, since there is no evidence at all that a recreation at Quantico ever took place.

As far as no one ever replicating the shots, I think you know better. Even a cursory glance at Google will turn up a dozen shooters who've matched or bettered Oswalds shooting performance.

Before getting too much into the issue of "replicating the shots," it might be a good idea for the folks raising it- MicahJava here- to answer first the question that was asked a page or so ago- what exactly would qualify as replication? Just the range and score (two out of three hits)? Or the trajectories from beginning to end? It seems to me the reasonable standard in showing that LHO could have done what he did is to show that he could have done what he intended and had control over.

It might also be a good idea for them to say exactly what this standard of replication is supposed to prove. If it's meant to say that it's evidence that the shots were so difficult they couldn't have been made by LHO, then obviously the same standard applies to any alternative. I'm not aware of any replication of shots from anywhere else; surely the standard cuts fairly both ways?

I know the temptation is strong here for the usual suspects to say "hey, I don't have to offer a coherent alternative, or say where the shots came from, so I don't have to replicate them." Sorry, but if they think the lack of replication is a reason to disbelieve that they came from Oswald, then they are, in fact, offering an alternative- after all, the shots came from somewhere. That they can't make their alternative a coherent one is their problem to solve, not a feature they should be crowing over.
 
Anybody seen the Mail Online this morning?

Oliver Stone now believes a Secret Service agent with military jargon has confessed a member of the security team shot JFK.
 
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