JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[MicahJava]

I also noticed that HSienzant hasn't responded to the evidence that Oswald owned half-portions of one dollar bills with strange three-digit numbers written on them. Not only is that evidence that Oswald was secretly meeting somebody in person, but that is now known as a classic spy technique. You do that when you're in an intelligence asset and want to check the authenticity of somebody you're meeting. Double-whammy to your query to when Oswald could have met with, or could have been manipulated by other conspirators.

I made a post about this on a few subreddits (on reddit.com) that poke fun at conspiracy theorists, and their uneducated guess was that Oswald had them because he was crazy and enjoyed pretending to be James Bond (nobody could name a piece of fiction from that time or before that depicts the half-dollar spy technique). Of course, you would know that Oswald wasn't that crazy even if you do think he was crazy.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay, Axxman300 brought up way too many points way too quickly. I'll make one rhetorical question: Is it intentional comedy that so many propaganda hitpieces make such lame "recreations" that don't recreate anything? I swear this has to be a tradition at this point. Take National Geographic's 2013 program JFK: The Lost Bullet for example. They used a laser beam to demonstrate a straight single-bullet trajectory from the snipers nest, but deceptively edited the scene to hide that the demonstration actually took place further down the road.

If your defense is to cite a recreation that I didn't link to then you're lost.

It also means you refuse to be objective and even honest.

It's like your dollar bill ploy, it has nothing to do with the shooting, it does not remove Oswald from the sniper's nest, nor does it clear him in any way as the shooter. You can play parlor games all you want but the ballistics don't lie.

 

[Axxman300]

I made a post about this on a few subreddits (on reddit.com) that poke fun at conspiracy theorists, and their uneducated guess was that Oswald had them because he was crazy and enjoyed pretending to be James Bond (nobody could name a piece of fiction from that time or before that depicts the half-dollar spy technique). Of course, you would know that Oswald wasn't that crazy even if you do think he was crazy.

You would have seen that in episodes of "The Untouchables", maybe even "I Led Three Lives", which was Oswald's favorite show.

The dollar bill thing is used to get into underground clubs and whore houses, which you could find in any large US city in 1963 if you knew the right people.

I would love to see where any spy has used the dollar bill thing.

 

[MicahJava]

If your defense is to cite a recreation that I didn't link to then you're lost.

Check out Pat Speer's long articles debunking these hitpieces.

https://tinyurl.com/BSandbeyond

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c:animania

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter16:newviewsonthesamescene

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-9c-mr-holland-s-colossal-blunder

It's like your dollar bill ploy, it has nothing to do with the shooting, it does not remove Oswald from the sniper's nest, nor does it clear him in any way as the shooter. You can play parlor games all you want but the ballistics don't lie.

This has nothing to do with Oswald.

You would have seen that in episodes of "The Untouchables", maybe even "I Led Three Lives", which was Oswald's favorite show.

I know Oswald enjoyed spy fiction, but which of that has the half-dollar bill thing?

The dollar bill thing is used to get into underground clubs and whore houses, which you could find in any large US city in 1963 if you knew the right people.

An interesting theory, but one without evidence. Citation for "The dollar bill thing is used to get into underground clubs and whore houses"? How would Oswald get there? Who saw him there?

The handwritten DPD note actually acknowledges the existence of two half-portions of $1 bills (not known where these were found), and the DPD inventory lists one whole $1 bill that was reported to be "ripped". We know that the ripped whole $1 bill was found in Oswald's (Texas Theatre) wallet and that it had "300" written in pencil. The circled numbers "180" and "221" on the DPD note can be perfectly explained by that as well. So we also have mysterious three-digit numbers written on these. The whole ripped $1 may have been there to easily rip off one half and give it to someone else.

I would love to see where any spy has used the dollar bill thing.

The half $1 bill trick was used to secretly contact Cuban exile Manuel Artime.

Antonio Veciana says that the CIA did use the $1 bill trick.

The technique was used by the French Connection heroin ring.

FBI website: "In the 1970s, two spies met each other using a tricky walk, a saying, and something special to share to recognize each other. At a theater entrance, one person was supposed to walk up the right side of the entrance from 7:00 p.m. to 7:07 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. to 7:35 p.m. The contacts then knew that this was the person to meet. To be sure, one person asked, “Are you interested in buying an antique 1930 Ford” and the other person was supposed to respond, “Yes, I am. After all I was born in 1930.” To be extra careful, both people gave each other a half of a dollar bill that belonged together."


David Atlee Phillips wrote in his book The Night Watch: 25 Years of Peculiar Service that we would sometimes meet contacts in a movie theater and exchange a special object and coded phrase.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Penn Jillette rapidly cycling a Carcano rifle under his arm without aiming at anything is not an accurate experiment.

So you agree with my point that trying to replicate set feats is dumb.

Asking if a target can be hit under the circumstances is more useful than the steaming pile of sillyness you offered?

Good.

Now to your Dollar Bill.

Do you have evidence that ties it to the assassination?

Or, given how Oswald wanted to infiltrate groups, and prove himself useful to them, that this is anything to do with spies?

You cant find it in spy fiction. Fine. You haven't cited it as a uniquely spy related activity. I did something along these lines as a boy scout, and I had never read it in spy fiction. I have however heard of it being used in the underground homosexual circles, or political activists. Why should I assume spies, for whom I have no evidence, over... Well lets say Cubans, who we know Oswald met, and may have a need for such a sign?

Even if he was a spy, how does this change anything but his motive?

 

[MicahJava]

So you agree with my point that trying to replicate set feats is dumb.

Asking if a target can be hit under the circumstances is more useful than the steaming pile of sillyness you offered?

Good.

Anybody can rapidly cycle the bolt without aiming. Penn Jillette is an idiot, and so is the entire episode of their program. It's almost as bad as their global warming denial episode in which they felt the need get bunch of young adults to sign a petition banning Dihydrogen Monoxide.

Now to your Dollar Bill.

Do you have evidence that ties it to the assassination?

Well, Oswald brought it with him. From what I understand, Oswald at least knew that something was going to happen the day of the parade.

Or, given how Oswald wanted to infiltrate groups, and prove himself useful to them, that this is anything to do with spies?

You cant find it in spy fiction. Fine. You haven't cited it as a uniquely spy related activity. I did something along these lines as a boy scout, and I had never read it in spy fiction. I have however heard of it being used in the underground homosexual circles, or political activists. Why should I assume spies, for whom I have no evidence, over... Well lets say Cubans, who we know Oswald met, and may have a need for such a sign?

Even if he was a spy, how does this change anything but his motive?

I do not think that there is any room for such hypothetical gaps in Oswald's life close enough to the day of the assassination. HSienzant uses this as an argument that Oswald could not have contacted other conspirators. If you acknowledged that Oswald was a U.S. intelligence asset, there's not much point in being a coincidence theorist about the other anomalous evidence linking him to the sniper's nest.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Let me see if I have this straight:

I show why experiments you discuss are meaningless, by pointing out an equally stupid, obviously flawed experiment.

You seem to think that stating it is flawed is arguing against me.

Do you understand why your claims "Replicating Oswalds shots" is not only futile, but entirely the wrong question?

And no. I don't accept Oswald was an intelligence asset. For reasons why feel free to read the previous incarnations of this thread.

That Oswald was a fantasist trying to be a spy has some evidence. That he was any kind of asset is not proven. There are hints he might have been an informer? So what. He lived in the USSR. We would expect a debriefing or interview. More likely he wanted to infiltrate anti Castro groups while member of a pro Castro group. Not exactly James Bond, but a plausible reason to have a contact icon like a dolls bill.

That CTers want to spread this as far as it will go is obvious. For the same reason they want his military service to mean "spy with access to spy planes and special ops training" or something. At best it is speculation.

 

[abaddon]

Anybody can rapidly cycle the bolt without aiming. Penn Jillette is an idiot, and so is the entire episode of their program. It's almost as bad as their global warming denial episode in which they felt the need get bunch of young adults to sign a petition banning Dihydrogen Monoxide.

1 minute video, 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds. And not Penn Jillette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4c5Zr7hzzA.

Clearly, the rifle itself is not any problem to making three shots in over 8 seconds.

Global warming is off topic for this thread. That is simply a deflection technique.

Well, Oswald brought it with him. From what I understand, Oswald at least knew that something was going to happen the day of the parade.

Of course he knew that. He was going to do it.

I do not think that there is any room for such hypothetical gaps in Oswald's life close enough to the day of the assassination. HSienzant uses this as an argument that Oswald could not have contacted other conspirators. If you acknowledged that Oswald was a U.S. intelligence asset, there's not much point in being a coincidence theorist about the other anomalous evidence linking him to the sniper's nest.

And if you don't accept such nonsense?

 

[No Other]

This assertion comes up so often that it's become a article of faith amongst the CT community that individuals that reject common JFK assassination nonsense (impossible shots by LHO, et al) have somehow only agreed with the governments version of events and haven't any foundation for their pov's based on their own knowledge, training or experience.

There is absolutely zero relationship or linkage in recognizing something flawed and the requirement to develop an alternative narrative; what you described is nothing more than an Appeal to Authority and Experience, I choose not to invoke those fallacies.

 

[Wolrab]

Maybe Oswald had a ripped dollar bill because it was ripped and needed to be taped. It is not like he was swimming in money.

I've had ripped money and I am not a spy... or am I?

 

[JayUtah]

There is absolutely zero relationship or linkage in recognizing something flawed and the requirement to develop an alternative narrative...

Claiming something is "flawed" doesn't make it an unserviceable explanation. Severing the linkage between propositions is how fringe claimants establish the double standard they rely upon to stay in the debate. The conventional narrative is said to need to meet some arbitrary standard of proof in order to be tenable at all, leaving the conspiracy theorist only with the need to find a "flaw" (of which there are many in any explanation of real-world happenstance events) and maybe throw out some speculation for how it "might" have happened. Since the conventional theory has been overthrown, the speculation seems reasonable in contrast.

The identified flaws matter only if they give rise to a better explanation that explains not only the flaws but also the straightforward evidence that the conventional narrative already explains -- and does so in a more parsimonious manner. No conspiracy theorist has yet done this, which is why the entire field is ignored by serious scholars. Thus the conventional narrative, amid all its alleged flaws, remains the best explanation.

Conspiracy theories fall into two camps on this point. There are those who, like you, deny any obligation to explain anything. They simply note the "flaws" and say that this somehow matters. Then there are those who propose part of a conspiracy theory but neglect to give it any better or more evidentiary explanatory power than the conventional narrative. But through the magic of the false dilemma, they saw the "flaws" in the conventional narrative mean we have to dismiss it outright and then the conspiracy theory must hold by default -- even if it actually has more of the same kinds of "flaws" as those that allegedly doomed the prevailing narrative.

The only way a conspiracy theory is going to get any traction beyond the fringe is if its proponent can show it to be more parsimonious that all other comers. If you don't want to do that, then you can decide whether you want to be irrelevant or incomplete.

 

[MicahJava]

1 minute video, 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds. And not Penn Jillette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4c5Zr7hzzA.

Clearly, the rifle itself is not any problem to making three shots in over 8 seconds.

He's just doing what Penn Jillette did, only in an aiming position (compared to what is supposed to have been done in the Sniper's nest, that's not aiming). I've seen this video and I had it in mind when I suggested that LNers could accept that the last two shots were close together if the last shot missed due to Oswald haphazardly cycling and firing without really trying to aim at anything. I'm sure you know the factors that went in to the traditional (minimum) 2.3 seconds estimation (confirmed several times by professionals).

And if you don't accept such nonsense?

Then add the half $1 bills on the pile of coincidences.

 

[MicahJava]

Maybe Oswald had a ripped dollar bill because it was ripped and needed to be taped. It is not like he was swimming in money.

I've had ripped money and I am not a spy... or am I?

The one in his wallet was intact. The other two acknowledged in the DPD note had their other halves missing (I infer that from the writing "half bill"). This also can not explain the strange three-digit numbers on the bills.

 

[MicahJava]

Let me see if I have this straight:

I show why experiments you discuss are meaningless, by pointing out an equally stupid, obviously flawed experiment.

You seem to think that stating it is flawed is arguing against me.

Do you understand why your claims "Replicating Oswalds shots" is not only futile, but entirely the wrong question?

And no. I don't accept Oswald was an intelligence asset. For reasons why feel free to read the previous incarnations of this thread.

That Oswald was a fantasist trying to be a spy has some evidence. That he was any kind of asset is not proven. There are hints he might have been an informer? So what. He lived in the USSR. We would expect a debriefing or interview. More likely he wanted to infiltrate anti Castro groups while member of a pro Castro group. Not exactly James Bond, but a plausible reason to have a contact icon like a dolls bill.

That CTers want to spread this as far as it will go is obvious. For the same reason they want his military service to mean "spy with access to spy planes and special ops training" or something. At best it is speculation.

Any practical use of ripped $1 bills is most likely to be very secretive about meeting somebody, so secretive that you can't just recognize them by their face. Practical use of halved dollar bills is completely different than just keeping them as a friendly memento, as some have suggested.

 

[Ranb]

Lol. Some of the best snipers in the world have said that they could not replicate those shots,

What are the names of these snipers? Craig Roberts says (in his book Kill Zone) that Carlos Hathcock claimed he could not have made the shot. Craig Roberts also can't properly identify landmarks on a map of Dealey Plaza and makes other fundamental errors in his book. Roberts also uses Hathcock's name when the man is dead and can't defend himself against the accusation.

and they were alledgedly made with a dollar store with the most defective scope ever.

If the scope is aligned, then it doesn't really matter how cheap it is as long as the glass is clear enough. What evidence do you have that the scope was the most defective ever? The rifle also had sights, what makes you think Oswald didn't use the sights?

I'm not aware anybody replicating the shots. I know of one experiment in which an olympic sniper accomplished something similar... from a height of the third floor of the school book depository.

Replicating the shot. What does it take to be an actual replication?

 

[Sandy McCroskey]

Any practical use of ripped $1 bills is most likely to be very secretive about meeting somebody, so secretive that you can't just recognize them by their face. Practical use of halved dollar bills is completely different than just keeping them as a friendly memento, as some have suggested.

Your first sentence doesn't make any sense. It says "Any practical use…is likely to be very secretive about meeting somebody." Did you mean to type "Any practical user"?

But I think the most common sort of practical user of ripped $1 bills would… tape them back together, when he got around to it.

It's not uncommon for bills to have ink marks on them. I would think, for the (somewhat rarer!) use that spies might put the two halves to, no special markings would be added, as they would be superfluous, at best, and risk premature exposure, at worst.

You are running on nothing but the the most tenuous speculation.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Any practical use of ripped $1 bills is most likely to be very secretive about meeting somebody, so secretive that you can't just recognize them by their face. Practical use of halved dollar bills is completely different than just keeping them as a friendly memento, as some have suggested.

Er... You mean like the non-spy groups that I mentioned, that Oswald has known connections to?

Is there anything about the dolls bill trick that can ONLY be used as an intelligence asset, or do you just not like the idea of it being used by his Cuban groups? Keep in mind it is not a nee trick, and a dollar bill is only as good as any other item with a suitable pattern.

IIRC it is pretty much how Romulas and Remus were recognised as royalty by their Grandfather. A distinctive item torn apart whose pieces match was a well used cliche by then. Using a dollar does not make it unique.

 

[MicahJava]

Your first sentence doesn't make any sense. It says "Any practical use…is likely to be very secretive about meeting somebody." Did you mean to type "Any practical user"?

But I think the most common sort of practical user of ripped $1 bills would… tape them back together, when he got around to it.

It's not uncommon for bills to have ink marks on them. I would think, for the (somewhat rarer!) use that spies might put the two halves to, no special markings would be added, as they would be superfluous, at best, and risk premature exposure, at worst.

You are running on nothing but the the most tenuous speculation.

Tenuous speculation? Most who try to rebut the dollar bills do so while acknowledging that they were significant in some way. Because they know that it's too much to be a coincidence.

 

[MicahJava]

Er... You mean like the non-spy groups that I mentioned, that Oswald has known connections to?

Is there anything about the dolls bill trick that can ONLY be used as an intelligence asset, or do you just not like the idea of it being used by his Cuban groups? Keep in mind it is not a nee trick, and a dollar bill is only as good as any other item with a suitable pattern.

It sounds a little pointless for something like that. From what I understand, the dollar bill trick is most useful when you're meeting with a totally anonymous person who was passed the bill from someone else. Oswald also felt the need to take the intact ripped dollar in his wallet on the day he supposedly killed the president. The situation is reminiscent of David Atlee Phillips exchanging secret objects and code phrases in a movie theater. I think at least one witness recalled that Oswald got out of his seat a few times to sit next to other random audience members, as if he was expecting to contact somebody.

IIRC it is pretty much how Romulas and Remus were recognised as royalty by their Grandfather. A distinctive item torn apart whose pieces match was a well used cliche by then. Using a dollar does not make it unique.

To add on to that, Oswald was also arrested with a ripped box top with the notation "Cox's, Fort Worth".

 

[traxy]

I think at least one witness recalled that Oswald got out of his seat a few times to sit next to other random audience members, as if he was expecting to contact somebody.

Who said this?

Did Oswald actually speak to any of the movie theater patrons? Seems like if he was expecting to contact someone, he would have said something to one of them.