Merged To disclose, or not

[Tony99]

It strikes me that one of the most bizarre blind spots in the brains of most CT is that the aliens have no policy about secrecy. If the aliens want to reveal themselves, they'd just touchdown in Times Square. There's not a damn thing the government could do about it.

I agree with this bit.
I would not directly disclose, but let the disclosure happen organically.
There would be no way to organize a cohesive global "plan" on how to deal with the aliens. Too many different cultures and beliefs and unique individuals.

For example: What if Italy, China and France want to peacefully contact and deal with the "aliens" and the US, India, Japan have decided to respond offensively.
How would a global unified response be accomplished in a timely manner?

I say no disclosure and continue to monitor and observe.

As the aliens clearly have the upper hand with their technology, it's truly up to them how they wish to reveal themselves to our planet.

They can park their saucer in Trafalgar Square and we (news, emergency responders, government, military) deal with it as events unfold.
Or if they just blink their UFO lights, do some aerial acrobatics and never return we're still business as usual.

 

[Myriad]

Hence , "what threats or opportunities do the aliens claim to present?" was moot. unless I'm wrong on that somehow.

How could you possibly be wrong on that? It's your own completely made up scenario for the sake of an amusing intellectual exercise in science fiction. At least, that's what you said. You're not claiming that it has anything to do with real events or history, right? You just want us to accept the hypothetical and imagine the fictional ramifications, right?

The problem is, the only elements of the hypothetical scenario that gives us any information about the aliens and their intentions is how "we" (specifically, the in-the-know folks giving us the task of deciding whether or not to disclose) are so certain that the aliens exist and are in fact aliens. Perhaps, for instance, as smartcooky surmised, military or scientific facilities tracked their craft (preferably with multiple independent instruments) all the way from earth to beyond Neptune's orbit (or the other way 'round), presumably combined with also observing the same object maneuvering through the atmosphere, ruling out instrument errors, interference, or any known natural phenomena such as comets. Or perhaps there's been limited communication. (Though if it's too limited, like the jokingly suggested bumper sticker, it might not be enough to justify the certainty. A bumper sticker, or for that matter an automatically repeated "we come in peace" message, suggests JPL techs with a sense of humor far more than aliens.)

Whatever the justification for the certainty is, it's a necessary part of the scenario, so it should be available to us to take into account when playing this fun science fiction exercise that's purely hypothetical.

 

[Bubba]

I thought he was asking for a better hypothetical scenario. I thought entertainment was the agenda.

Nope. But comedy creeps in with clowns.

Re agenda...

Actual discussion. This approach produced some serious discussion, thanks, after various unsuccessful approaches.

An unexpected by-product is opportunity to reflect on how some can engage the subject seriously and others not.

That is perhaps more interesting than the discussion, as Atheist pointed out.
.

 

[Bubba]

by Myriad

If I were the secret dictator of some powerful nation, and I were faced with the question of what to do with the reports of the type you listed, sightings of craft appearing and disappearing and moving at (believed-to-be-) impossible speeds and accelerations, here's what I would do:....

You've got me reading the OP again.

Well, I didnt think the decider is meant to be a secret leader or dictator.
I hadnt' even thought about whether that would complicate it more than desired.


I think the only secrecy involved so far is that the decider is keeping the knowledge secret while mulling it over and perhaps consulting her/his handful of people 'in-the-know'


Yes, smartcooky and others, it would be hefty handful of people in the know. Its OK. They dont leak.

 

[Bubba]

How could you possibly be wrong on that? It's your own completely made up scenario for the sake of an amusing intellectual exercise in science fiction. At least, that's what you said. You're not claiming that it has anything to do with real events or history, right? You just want us to accept the hypothetical and imagine the fictional ramifications, right?

Right. ...and as stated in OP the setting and timeline are here and now. That may provide adequate cultural fodder for reference, if useful to participants. Otherwise yes its hypothetical, or sci-fi.

The problem is, the only elements of the hypothetical scenario that gives us any information about the aliens and their intentions is how "we" (specifically, the in-the-know folks giving us the task of deciding whether or not to disclose) are so certain that the aliens exist and are in fact aliens. Perhaps, for instance, as smartcooky surmised, military or scientific facilities tracked their craft (preferably with multiple independent instruments) all the way from earth to beyond Neptune's orbit (or the other way 'round), presumably combined with also observing the same object maneuvering through the atmosphere, ruling out instrument errors, interference, or any known natural phenomena such as comets. Or perhaps there's been limited communication.

Yes thanks. While intending to keep it simple as possible, the OP does address it: "Your resources have confirmed these ET craft can 'impossibly' fly straight up and into outer space at 20K+ mph...they pace your air force pilots at their speed ..."


Before adding 'your resources' and 'your air force pilots' it was at first meant to be as simple as.... "You have determined that earth is being visited by intelligent beings....identified as not from Earth...."

(Though if it's too limited, like the jokingly suggested bumper sticker, it might not be enough to justify the certainty. A bumper sticker, or for that matter an automatically repeated "we come in peace" message, suggests JPL techs with a sense of humor far more than aliens.)

Whatever the justification for the certainty is, it's a necessary part of the scenario, so it should be available to us to take into account when playing this fun science fiction exercise that's purely hypothetical.

 

[eerok]

Does anyone know what this thread is about?

It's disclose to a meaningful topic.

 

[Bubba]

Well, its not unreasonable to think that if "We" ("We" being the massive organisation that knows about these things) have watched these vehicles/ships/devices "fly straight up and into outer space at 20K+ mph", that we have also been able to track them out beyond the orbit of Neptune (we can already do that now with the Pioneers and the Voyagers) and would not be unreasonable to conclude "perhaps aliens" in the absence of any likelihood that humans were responsible.

Yeah, thats one reason the chosen setting is here and now.

In any case, the phenomena we have clearly observed (as specified by Bubba) is a long way beyond any current understanding of the Laws of physics, so , does it really matter whether its aliens from beyond or from within.

Good point. I suppose even if we observe them zooming around the galaxy, we dont necessarily know who they are, and where they are from.

They could be from no planet, maybe 'home' is on a huge ship(s). Kinda like the RV lifestyle, picking up groceries and other stuff here and there on the road.

Come to think of it.....could it be that instead of 'aliens', they are a quiet splinter group of 'us' that developed their technology without the rest of us noticing?

I guess we cant be sure enough to exclude that from the picture.

It works:

"...does it really matter whether its aliens from beyond or from within."

.

 

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post

Does anyone know what this thread is about?

Yes, apparently some do.

 

[jaydeehess]

It strikes me that one of the most bizarre blind spots in the brains of most CT is that the aliens have no policy about secrecy. If the aliens want to reveal themselves, they'd just touchdown in Times Square. There's not a damn thing the government could do about it. Maybe that was Plan 10.

I agree with this bit.
..................
As the aliens clearly have the upper hand with their technology, it's truly up to them how they wish to reveal themselves to our planet.

They can park their saucer in Trafalgar Square and we (news, emergency responders, government, military) deal with it as events unfold.
Or if they just blink their UFO lights, do some aerial acrobatics and never return we're still business as usual.

The converse is also true. World powers have a huge infrastructure designed to detect things that other countries want kept secret. Despite that, a lot of things remain secret.
Now along comes a race with tech able to traverse interstellar space. If they don't want to be detected, they won't be detected.

Now unless we are speaking about a race of practical jokers who sometimes allow hints and peeks then disappear again, that's a different, comedy, sci-fi theme.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Well, my first instinct would be to tell everyone.

But, with apologies to Mitchell and Webb, if we tell everyone we're being visited by aliens, the first thing they're going to ask is "well, how do you know it's aliens?". So we're going to have to be able to say "they came in those giant saucers you saw".

If all we have is a few anecdotes and rubbish photos of blurry lights and might-as-well-be-hubcaps, nobody's going to believe it anyway. If we want people to believe it's aliens, we're going to have to show them whatever convinced us it's aliens (whatever that might be).

 

[John Nowak]

I say no disclosure and continue to monitor and observe.

I don't see any benefit to covering it up. If and when it does go public, there's only two possible outcomes:

1) People assume you're an idiot because you didn't know, although you have access to more information.

2) People wonder why you chose to cover it up, and start making assumptions.

Naturally, this all assumes there's no good reason to cover it up. Offhand, the scenario in 2001 is plausible: aliens are out there, and the US wants to be the first to contact them. But aside from that, I can't think of anything.

If, say, you detect the aliens using the amazing capabilities of your top secret sensors, I kinda think that "Aliens" is going to be a bigger deal.

Another reason you might want to sit on the data is that you're not sure it's aliens. I assumed you are certain by this point.

 

[Bubba]

The OP says "You have determined.....that it is aliens zooming around in those spacecraft.

It doesnt mention how this was determined.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if the decider has been fooled into believing it is aliens.

The craft are real and they do fly as described.

 

[Bubba]

.
How do you determine an intelligent being is alien anyway?

I suppose if they are sufficiently alien looking, one glance would suffice.
.

 

[malbec]

The OP says "You have determined.....that it is aliens zooming around in those spacecraft.

It doesnt mention how this was determined. edit

.

There are thousands of instances where UFOs behave in non natural ways and seemingly display both intelligence and purpose .It is convenient to use the term Alien as a description of the guiding force , though whether such craft are handled by robots or piloted by hybrids or other non earth races , is for conjecture .Equally , there are hundreds of testimonies from people who have worked with Aliens -- a variety of whistleblowers -- , and/or have been involved in rescue operations of crashed craft -- most aliens were pronounced dead .But not all . If you choose to think that there is a growing army of hoaxers , fools , fantasy merchants and sick people , so be it .Certainly it is a quick and convenient way of dismissing something which might otherwise totally undermine previously held beliefs and life perspectives . There are actually some people who actively resent the idea that we are neither very special or alone .And there are others still stuck with an old fashioned quantum universe notion , not having yet stumbled on the fact that the universe works on process -- chemical waves that are now termed as reaction diffusion waves .See the Belousov - Zhabotinskii reaction etc

 

[JayUtah]

If you choose to think that there is a growing army of hoaxers , fools , fantasy merchants and sick people , so be it.

Straw man. Skeptics don't generally dismiss non-credible claimants as "sick people," although UFO fanatics seem to want to shame their critics away from questioning the accounts by attributing those characterizations wrongly.

And yes, there is a growing army of hoaxers, charlatans, and flat-out liars who populate the ranks of celebrati among UFO enthusiasts. They make the rounds of conventions and such raking in speaking and appearance fees for nothing more substantial than outrageous claims.

Certainly it is a quick and convenient way of dismissing something which might otherwise totally undermine previously held beliefs and life perspectives .

It's not a dismissal. It's a careful consideration of extraordinary claims for which the claimants provide little if any evidence. In some cases, such as that of Clifford Stone, people who served at the bases Stone claimed to have served at quizzed him about things that would be common knowledge for anyone who served there. Stone could not answer.

There's Maurice Chatelain who claimed to be the head of communications at NASA, and on that basis claimed special knowledge of aliens. Turns out he was a low-level technician for a contractor who worked at one NASA site for a few days installing equipment.

When you have obvious and chronic liars like that among the ranks of your witnesses, it is foolish not to treat farfetched claims from that group with quite a lot of skepticism. There is clearly a desire among the claimants to fabricate evidence.

As to the "held beliefs and life perspectives," that's poppycock. Because UFO claimants lack evidence, they have to come up with a more ego-soothing excuse for why people don't believe them. So they fabricate the notion that skeptics are ideologically entrenched and emotionally challenged. I would turn that criticism about and ask what is it about beliefs that are so deeply desired that they force people to tell outright lies about their background in order to be acclaimed by this group of believers?

There are actually some people who actively resent the idea that we are neither very special or alone.

False dilemma. I believe neither that we are alone nor that we are very special. However, I do not believe we are being visited by alien intelligence, nor that UFOs are their spacecraft.

 

[jaydeehess]

There are thousands of instances where UFOs behave in non natural ways and seemingly display both intelligence and purpose .

Which does nothing to dispel the first part of the term, UFO.

It is convenient to use the term Alien as a description of the guiding force , though whether such craft are handled by robots or piloted by hybrids or other non earth races , is for conjecture .

Yep, oh sorry, "alien" is also pure conjecture.

Equally , there are hundreds of testimonies from people who have worked with Aliens -- a variety of whistleblowers -

Who cannot, it seems ever actually prove they have the work experience they claim.

If you choose to think that there is a growing army of hoaxers , fools , fantasy merchants and sick people , so be it .

I choose to follow actual evidence. I could tell you that I have worked at the underground submarine bases in Arizona. Best place to hide a submarine, the Russians won't look for them in a desert. There I said it, prove me any more credible or incredible than any of the UFO workers you care to mention.

Certainly it is a quick and convenient way of dismissing something which might otherwise totally undermine previously held beliefs and life perspectives .

Frankly I do not believe that we are the only intelligent life form in our galaxy let alone the universe. Nor do I believe that we are the epitome of technological and scientific knowledge. I would be very very interested, curious, and wishing to know more, of any evidence to confirm such.

There are actually some people who actively resent the idea that we are neither very special or alone .

Yep, but few of them, imho, populate this forum.

And there are others still stuck with an old fashioned quantum universe notion , not having yet stumbled on the fact that the universe works on process -- chemical waves that are now termed as reaction diffusion waves .See the Belousov - Zhabotinskii reaction etc

Utter nonsense.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

The hypothetical has too many assumptions. Anything real that zips around in the sky like that is going to get seen by a lot of people. Anything odd that gets seen by a lot of people is going to make the news. If it doesn't make the news, a lot of people didn't see it, so it probably wasn't a real thing zipping around in the sky.

But these things happen reliably enough that I'm like "yup, the aliens are back?" Then I'd want to document them. If I see them, and the cameras see them, and other people nearby see them, and they still don't make the news? What to do then is an interesting question.

 

[Horatius]

The hypothetical has too many assumptions. Anything real that zips around in the sky like that is going to get seen by a lot of people. Anything odd that gets seen by a lot of people is going to make the news. If it doesn't make the news, a lot of people didn't see it, so it probably wasn't a real thing zipping around in the sky.

This isn't necessarily true. The OP makes a point that they're following our military planes, but there's no indication that they've followed anyone else.

They might be buzzing only military planes in out-of-the-way places like over oceans, leading to many credible reports and video from these encounters, while going essentially unnoticed by civilians. The military would be more inclined to keeping things secret while the bigwigs sort out what to do about the problem.

 

[malbec]

.
How do you determine an intelligent being is alien anyway?

I suppose if they are sufficiently alien looking, one glance would suffice.
.

Once you have immersed into this area -- I get the impression that nobody here has a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ beginners idea of the back history --- you have to look at pre ca 12000 BC evidence ; And wonder why the MSM acts as though this time slot is apparently totally unscripted .To help the possible interested puzzle solver here ( miracles happen ) , I suggest that you all research the thousands of miles of underground tunnels that cover the planet and are based on technology that we have just been able to approach in the last three decades . Peru and Bolivia are excellent start points but you will have to avoid Vatican officialdom which has clamped ruthlessly on transparency since they took control around 4-500 years ago .No wonder they own the the Mount Graham telescope ( effectively ) in Arizona -- from memory .

 

[Beelzebuddy]

This isn't necessarily true. The OP makes a point that they're following our military planes, but there's no indication that they've followed anyone else.

They might be buzzing only military planes in out-of-the-way places like over oceans, leading to many credible reports and video from these encounters, while going essentially unnoticed by civilians. The military would be more inclined to keeping things secret while the bigwigs sort out what to do about the problem.

Is that what "pace your air force pilots at their speed" means?

AFAIK, if you see a military jet it's because they don't care about being seen, and I doubt I'd be able to tell any other planes apart, so my reaction would probably be the same.

But it would actually be very reassuring to know that the aliens can distinguish military planes from all others. It means their goals don't involve us being crushed like ants beneath an uncaring boot. Let's face it, these guys come from another planet, while we can't even reach our moon any more. If they wanted to **** us, they'd just **** us, they wouldn't bother showboating to our military.