General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[HDenier]

Please provide evidence of the Germans releasing any Jewish, Romani, or homosexual prisoners from Auschwitz.

Steven Ross. Boston Holocaust survivor and murderer himself, in a personal taped admission in front of hundreds that I was at, mentioned that Dachau homosexuals were rehabilitated and released. Auschwitz had the same.
You ignore why these camps were set up in the first place, lot of great info here..

http://hdenier.freeforums.net/thread/2/holocaust-true-hoax

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[HDenier]

Anti-HD laws and the IMT are unrelated. Your post merely claims that the trial was a farce and low - you explain nothing and provide nothing to substantiate your claim.

But my post was about this: The discussion was about German war crimes, and you had posted that "The Germans were fighting Communism, the ones that killed what, tens of millions in the annals of time. I suppose you were on the side of those Russian butchers?"

My reply is that you are trying to make an exception for German war crimes and crimes against humanity in the East, committed against the civilian population of the Soviet Union and countries it had occupied and incorporated, as well as against soldiers from the Soviet Union - on account of the USSR being ruled by Stalinists. By giving us your views of the IMT, you have avoided discussing these German crimes against civilians and prisoners.

The Germans were the scapegoats for the Allies war crimes that were much worse.

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[HDenier]

No the Treblinka victims were still there. Tell me where the bodies came from, to make this pile of (forensically confirmed) human ash that covered 20,000 square metres, at Treblinka?

Those are real picture's. I doubt it, show links

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[HDenier]

The Poles did murder ethnic Germans AFTER the Germans invaded Poland.

I do not condone the actions themselves, what I am saying is you can't claim the Germans invaded Poland to stop the Poles from killing ethnic Germans. The invasion resulted in the Poles killing Germans, not the other way around.

I think you got that wrong. Germany went into Poland because Germans were being slaughtered, viciously..

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[LemmyCaution]

No the Treblinka victims were still there. Tell me where the bodies came from, to make this pile of (forensically confirmed) human ash that covered 20,000 square metres, at Treblinka?

Matthew, those photos show, er, "that the bodies were cremated at the site." Quelle surprise!

These are some crucial links for understanding the details of what was done with bodies of victims at the Einsatz Reinhard camps:

HDOT Aktion Reinhard cremation overview

Muehlenkamp - HC: AR camps cremation intro; fuel requirements; duration of cremations; cremation remains

Nizkor cremation overview

These links were posted in reply to one of HDenier's posts about a week ago - he's not replied to the information, which rebuts his claims and answers his questions, such as what about wood for cremation fires.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Hey HDenier,

You linked to an article on Majdanek that was very confused about the buildings and rooms there for bathing, showers, and gassing. In this post, I straightened things out. You replied

Nice post, I believe the accuracy of Hunt

but you failed to

1) explain why you linked forum members to an article full of easily demonstrated inaccuracies and strawmen

2) why you believe Hunt when I've shown how he is wrong.

Are you going to provide the evidence and reasoning for your belief or rest your case on what your faith, which you hold contrary to the evidence?

 

[HDenier]

Well, HDenier, since you prefer not to explain what your post about Majdanek is referring to, I decided to do your work for you and poke around the page you linked to. Is this what the comment you quoted pertained to?
If so, the article is flat-out mistaken. The gas chamber building is unique. There are two closely matching but not identical bathhouses at the north end of the Economics Sector at Majdanek. These are B&D I (no. 41) and B&D II (no. 42), respectively the men's and women's bathhouses. No. 42 is the building closed to tourists. Closely adjacent to no. 41, a few feet north of it, is a bunker housing three gas chambers - one large room to the west, two smaller rooms to the east. The gas chamber structure is not "identical" to a building next to it - there is no building next to it!

The gas chambers are not in no. 41, as the article implies, according to the museum. They are in the bunker to the north. Both nos. 41 and 42 were used for processing arriving prisoners and showering/delousing prisoners. Most people studying the camp today are of the opinion that a room at the northern end of no. 41, marked "IV" on a diagram of the building made by a Polish-Soviet investigating commission in 1944, was used to disinfest clothing.

To help you understand this, here is an aerial view of the buildings made recently:

[imgw=800]http://i.imgur.com/us2120v.png?3[/imgw]

"GC" is the gas chambers bunker, and 41 and 42 are the bathhouses described above. During the war, when the camp was operating, the bunker was under a pavilion-style roof and surrounded by barbed wire. (A route which prisoners' commonly took on entering the camp is marked with yellow arrows, and 43 and 44 were called the Effektenkammer; these were the buildings where incoming prisoners surrendered their valuables before being taken into the bathhouses or to a waiting area for the gas chambers.)

Much more can be said. But for now let's just note that the article is mistaken.

In fact, the only people confused here are whoever wrote the article you linked to and "rizolitv," whose comment, as I already noted, is nearly unintelligible.

Edited by jsfisher: 

IMGW tags substituted for IMG tags to produce an image of reasonable width.

Killing machine nonsense.....

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[HDenier]

Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were located in the Generalgovernment area of occupied Poland. They were staffed by former T4 personnel and were commissioned for the sole purpose of killing Jews. These are the facts.

Nonsense...just kill those Jews only..

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[LemmyCaution]

Steven Ross. Boston Holocaust survivor and murderer himself, in a personal taped admission in front of hundreds that I was at, mentioned that Dachau homosexuals were rehabilitated and released. Auschwitz had the same.
You ignore why these camps were set up in the first place, lot of great info here..

http://hdenier.freeforums.net/thread/2/holocaust-true-hoax

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You do realize that the Nazis' goals for Dachau were not the same as their goals for Auschwitz, no? Different categories of prisoners (political prisoners, so-called asocials, Jews, Roma, Poles, Germans and so on) received different treatment in the camps (and, for example, gays were treated differently if they were German vs Polish). Likewise, at Auschwitz, registered prisoners, gays among them, and unregistered prisoners (most Jews brought to the camp but not selected for gassing), were treated differently. You cannot generalize one from the other, leaving aside the question of releases of gay prisoners, which I don't have information on. For those interested, here is an article on gay prisoners at Auschwitz.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The Germans were the scapegoats for the Allies war crimes that were much worse.

This is a confusing statement. The war crimes committed in the East were committed by the Germans. We can look at documentation after we clear up what you are trying to say.

From what you wrote it sounds like you are saying that the Germans did not carry out mass murder and executions, plunder, persecutions, forced labor programs, and other crimes in the East (including the USSR and annexed countries): rather, you seem to be saying that these crimes against civilians in the East were committed by the Allies, who then used the Germans as scapegoats for these murders, etc. And also that the 3.3 million deaths of Soviet POWs in German captivity were somehow caused by the Allies, who again falsely blamed the Germans.

All this is nonsensical.

If this is not what you're saying, please do explain.

(Some quick links, for discussion, on German war crimes in the occupied USSR - here, here, here, and here - and on treatment of Soviet POWs - here, here, and here.)

 

[LemmyCaution]

Those are real picture's. I doubt it, show links

So you agree then that, if Matthew can show that the photos are authentic, they show incriminating evidence that undermines your assertion about the bodies at Treblinka?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Killing machine nonsense.....

Obviously you can neither defend/support what you claimed nor refute what I've written. "Killing machine nonsense" provides no evidence or explanation for your case - only a mere assertion of belief or faith.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nonsense...

Nonsense . . . is not an argument, nor is it evidence. On what ground should anyone take seriously what you claim?

 

[threadworm]

This is a confusing statement. The war crimes committed in the East were committed by the Germans. We can look at documentation after we clear up what you are trying to say.

I think he appears to be arguing along the lines that the Allies bombed Dresden therefore no Jews were murdered.

Likewise Stalin's USSR committed vast numbers of murders throughout his rule, therefore Germany didn't kill anyone.

It's a ridiculous argument.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think he appears to be arguing along the lines that the Allies bombed Dresden therefore no Jews were murdered.

Likewise Stalin's USSR committed vast numbers of murders throughout his rule, therefore Germany didn't kill anyone.

It's a ridiculous argument.

Especially since my point was not that the Allies didn't bomb Dresden, and not that Stalin was a kindly uncle to the Great Soviet People, but that HDenier's "justification" of what the Germans did in the East ("The Germans were fighting Communism . . . I suppose you were on the side of those Russian butchers?") is no justification at all. Even if there'd been no IMT, no findings of guilt for these crimes, they were committed, and that was what I'd explained to him.

Dresden IMO was a war crime, and I know I'm in a minority on this - but the bombing of Dresden and other German cities, nor the wave of rapes committed by advancing Soviet troops, nor Stalin's domestic crimes explain what the Germans did when they occupied the East.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

I think you got that wrong. Germany went into Poland because Germans were being slaughtered, viciously..

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No, I have that right. The only proof you've shown is Germans dying after the invasion, not before.

BTW, Jim, the German minority in Poland only became an issue to Hitler after relations between the two countries went south in the Spring of 1939, the Germans and Poles were on good terms throughout the 30's after Hitler became Chancellor.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I think he appears to be arguing along the lines that the Allies bombed Dresden therefore no Jews were murdered.

Likewise Stalin's USSR committed vast numbers of murders throughout his rule, therefore Germany didn't kill anyone.

It's a ridiculous argument.

And certainly, as some room supposedly wasn't a gas chamber as alleged, then no other single room in those premises and other similar premises was a gas chamber.

It's the logic of "prove this man didn't kill this person and you'll prove this man never killed nor any other person remotely related to this man ever did".

If it weren't a matter of Tyrians and Trojans, murder wouldn't exist at all, but it is, so, for those opposed to the protected "man and his colleagues" it suffices a label or a slightly snide remark to prove they are guilty by definition.

Sound epistemology

 

[HDenier]

So you agree then that, if Matthew can show that the photos are authentic, they show incriminating evidence that undermines your assertion about the bodies at Treblinka?

You really think those pictures are authentic? ALL of a sudden after 20+ years of studying this topic This is the first time I have ever seen this picture? The hoaxers would NEVER have stopped this picture from day one from not coming out, FROM DAY ONE.... That picture is a joke....

Edited by zooterkin: 

Edited for rule 11

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[HDenier]

Those pictures are hilarious. What happened the bone crusher machine break that day? I see a lot of femurs lying around....What was it one bone crusher machine for tens of millions of bodies broke down that Day, LMAO.

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[CaptainHowdy]

You really think those pictures are authentic? ALL of a sudden after 20+ years of studying this topic This is the first time I have ever seen this picture? The hoaxers would NEVER have stopped this picture from day one from not coming out, FROM DAY ONE.... That picture is a joke....

Edited by zooterkin: 

Edited for rule 11

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I have not studied this topic for any length of time and I have seen this picture before. If you have ever googled treblinka and clicked on the images you surely saw these pictures or others similar.