General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[HDenier]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm

 

[Ivanesca]

There were no homicidal gas chambers. No Jews to soap, no Jews to wallets or lampshades, no Jews killed by head bashing machines No Jews killed by atomic bombs no Jews electrocuted no Jews put on a conveyor belt and killed no Jews lived within 10 feet have a crematorium, and lastly the whole holohoax ...

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http://www.skepticforum.com/download/file.php?id=4619

Homicidal Gas chambers are documented. There are documents talking about "Special Vans" using "Bottles of Carbon Monoxide", a "Vergasungskeller", and how a cellar had "gas tight doors" and "showerheads". The Soviets conducted autopsies at Kharkov and Krasnodar and identified the cause of death as Carbon Monoxide poisoning, while an internal German Autopsy was carried out on gassing victims at Stuthoff. Traces of HCN were found at Auschwitz and Majdanek, confirming the exposure to Zyklon B. Some witnesses saw these from a distance and mistakenly assumed that Electricity was the method used. The judges at war crime trials weighed the evidence carefully and found that Gas is the most plausible means of murder based on the evidence. The others (electricity and atomic) bombs were mistaken, based on isolated bits of evidence compared to the multiple converging streams of evidence for gas chambers and were therefore irrelevant. Which is why the findings of fact and the Court Judgement at the IMT mentioned gas as the means of killing.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Notice I said "reputable" Christian. Personally I feel that 99.9% of Christianity is apostate.

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Ah. So you are willing to judge what is typical of one faith, but choose to be more discerning about your own?

Odd then that you did not point out that reputable members of the Jewish faith would not wish harm. Odd then that you are even considering the Jewish faith or race as a factor at all.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Will HD give us a fully formed alternate theory to best explain the totality of the evidence? Or is "denier" all too apt, in place of actual discussion?

 

[LemmyCaution]

All of a sudden we get these so called diaries, see what David Irving thinks. He's good at smelling a rat..


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Revisionist methodology: 1) repeat 6 million killed with bug spray, 2) keep misquoting Gringauz no matter how many times it is explained where you're wrong, 3) refuse to read books that don't confirm your biases, 4) mock the books you've not read, and 5) sniff around for rats

 

[LemmyCaution]

The guys, 94 years old. Probably doesn't even know what day it is...

He made a very cogent and articulate statement to the court. But I don't get your point: whether Gröning should have been tried, or not, is beside the point to whether he was at Auschwitz and involved in helping the camp function, including carry out mass murder. I personally don't think Gröning should have been tried.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh stop this crap.

Quite a strong argument.

Zündel only had opinions. Opinions are debatable, except when the Jews are involved.

Not what the Canadian Supreme Court decided: "however, in 1992 in R. v. Zündel his conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court of Canada when the law under which he had been charged, reporting false news, was ruled unconstitutional.[20]" (from Wikipedia, as I wrote)

Anybody involved in that debacle of a sham trial and you who defend it are seriously ill.

I don't defend it. I simply explained it accurately.

Jim Rizolis cable shows were taken off the air because the Jews started it.

"The Jews"?

 

[Border Reiver]

Notice I said "reputable" Christian. Personally I feel that 99.9% of Christianity is apostate.

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You may, or may not, get along with Paul Bethke of this forum then, as he believes much the same thing.

Of course his version of Christianity seems to be a belief in Jesus while following as much of the OT rules as he thinks should apply.


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[LemmyCaution]

Don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis to the core but I feel for him. He tried to make a difference for a very good cause late in life to make up for his complicity in mass murder.

As opposed to a scumbag like Demanjuk who denied, denied, denied.

Gröning committed actions as a young man that were morally wrong. He admitted doing so, both before his trial and in his statement to the court. He shows every sign of having, without the help of punishment, come to terms with what he did. And he made a decades' long effort to make up for his participation at Auschwitz by speaking about what happened there, specifically against Holocaust denial. I think he should not have been tried - but that's not a blanket view of elderly perpetrators. Each case should be taken on its own merits.

It is funny to have these guys "debate" us attributing to all of us a view many of us don't hold!

 

[LemmyCaution]

No, BLIND ONE. they invented these stories BECAUSE THEY WERE BAD.
People become sympathetic to their victimization even though these Jewish workers were part of the killing process. These workers invent those stories to cover their evil they did in the camps. Some of these Jewish Kapos were mean sob's.
So to cover up their actions they blame others.
You can't see that? It's like blaming the dog for stealing the brownies. The kid took one first. Blames the dog.

The whole Holohoax story has so many lies and cover-ups it's incredible. A good example of this is when the Americans came into these concentration camps they inadvertently fed all these people and what happened is the people's bodies couldn't absorb the food and a lot of these people died within days. The bodies that you see in the pictures are those people that the Americans fed yet they blamed the Germans for the deaths of those people and those bodies strewn around the ground. Isn't it funny the Germans wanted to use the same excuse that the Jews used in that they were forced to do certain things and the Jews get away with it and the Germans go to jail or get killed.

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Let's take the case of Bergen-Belsen. Any reasonable assessment of the end days of Bergen-Belsen has to proceed from the basic fact of the catastrophic conditions in the camp that developed when its mission changed to collection/reception site in late 1944. Omitting this history, and the condition of the camp when the Allies liberated it, is tendentious.

The disaster in the camp - which came primarily as a result of factors under the Nazis’ control (a nearly mad and certainly chaotic effort to make inmates from the East available for labor, Himmler’s “outreach” to the Allies for which he wanted to use KL prisoners as bargaining chips, the Germans’ refusal to understand they’d lost the war and thus their descent into sheer destructive warfare, impact of longstanding brutalization and disregard for prisoners and targeted population groups, insane overcrowding in western camps as inmates were collected at various sites, etc - all in the context of a delusional military strategy) - was so anarchic that Kramer appealed for Glucks’ support in bringing the situation under control.

At the time, a typhus epidemic - which had begun in February 1945 and which was caused by the ruinous conditions in the camp and exacerbated by the primitive, at best, medical care provided by the Germans - was raging, making evacuation of prisoners en masse from Bergen-Belsen impossible. Allied bombing strikes hit water lines to the camp (IIRC in March) - and the water supply was still a major need when the British took over the camp. With the German-imposed disaster that was B-B by this time, the shocks of the war were nearly impossible for those running B-B to address.

In July 1944 the various sub-camps at Bergen-Belsen had held about 7,500 prisoners. The infrastructure wasn't in place, despite expansion of Bergen-Belsen during 1944, to accommodate and support many times this number of inmates. Yet, the war which Nazis launched was not by 1944, we might say, working out for Germany. As Germany lost territory, one reaction was to move inmates westward from camps in danger of falling to the Red Army. One of the places to which inmates were brought, starting in mid-1944, was Bergen-Belsen. According to this article at Gedenkstätte Bergen-Belsen,

In the summer of 1944, the SS began to evacuate the camps near the front lines and transport tens of thousands of prisoners to more centrally located camps under catastrophic conditions. At least 85,000 men, women and children were taken to Bergen-Belsen on over 100 transports and death marches starting in December 1944. . . . These transports carrying thousands of people arrived at Bergen-Belsen in quick succession, leading to complete overcrowding in the camp. After taking over the section of the camp that the Wehrmacht had used as a POW hospital in January 1945, the SS expanded the women’s camp and made the men’s camp much larger as well. Nonetheless, the available huts were entirely overcrowded in a very short period of time. The prisoners received almost no food, and epidemics of typhus and typhoid fever broke out which the SS never seriously tried to contain. The “special” status originally held by the exchange camp prisoners no longer applied, and in the final months of the war they were subjected to the same unimaginably horrific living conditions as all of the other prisoners.

This complex situation, and particularly the changing role of Bergen-Belsen as the end of the war approached, would be the appropriate context for the disasters that befell the camp.

An early indicator of the camp’s changing purposes and conditions came in March 1944, when, with a transport of 1,000 very ill inmates from the slave-labor camps at Dora-Mittelbau the Nazis began offloading sick prisoners unable to work to Bergen-Belsen, supposedly for treatment, although no relevant medical facilities were available at Bergen-Belsen; in summer 1944, 200 of these transferees would be put to death with phenol injections (USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, Vol 1/Part A, p 279). During that same summer, a tent was built to “house” female prisoners brought to Bergen-Belsen from Poland for armaments work; in the fall, the tent was destroyed in a storm and the female prisoners – by then numbering 8,000 – were squeezed into existing barracks. In the fall, with evacuation from the East by then a major effort, Bergen-Belsen saw yet another change in its role as the camp was pressed into service as a “destination for . . . evacuation transports”; thus, the camp was expanded in January 1945. According to the USHMM Encyclopedia (p 280), the changes brought a logistical and administrative nightmare, overwhelmed systems, and lethal chaos in the camp:

As a result of this change of role for Bergen-Belsen and the rapid increase in prisoner transports, the camp changed from a detention camp, holding hostages for exchange, into a de facto death camp.

It was at this point that Kramer became commandant (p 280):

The numerous evacuation transports that were directed to Bergen-Belsen from the end of 1944 led to a catastrophic overcrowding in the camp [see below]. . . . In the hastily constructed, completely overcrowded, and mostly unheatable barracks there was often no furniture of any description so that countless had to lie on the ground. Hunger and illness, which the SS took no steps to deal with, determined the life of the prisoners in those areas of the camp where the living conditions had once been bearable. Vermin and diseases such as typhus, dysentery, and tuberculosis caused an ever-increasing number of deaths in the confined spaces where there was a complete lack of hygiene and medical care.

In fact, reported death tolls for this period indicate a rapid rise in mortality correlating to the increased camp population, not to Allied control of the camp and not to bombing or other military operations; Allied control of the camp wasn't achieved until 15 April 1945, by which time the camp's population was 55,000 - over 5x what it had been just 9 months before. Bergen-Belsen held “only” 41,250 prisoners on 1 March 1945 – 20,000 fewer than its population at liberation but 5.5x its July 1944 population (USHMM Encyclopedia, p 280). Death tolls shot up as the camp's population increased, with Bergen-Belsen's mission changing to collection point and with systems and order in the camp breaking down as a result:

Deaths in all of 1943-1944: 3,100
Deaths in January 1945: around 1,200
Deaths in February 1945: around 6,400 (typhus epidemic)
Deaths in March 1945: at least 18,168
Deaths in April 1945: around 10,000

The worst of these outcomes precede by months the camp's liberation and stem mostly from self-imposed problems created by the German war effort, Germany’s inglorious and ruinous defeat, the network of camps created by the SS in particular, and the SS decision to crowd prisoners as though they were goods for labor or bargaining chits or pieces of incriminating evidence into a diminishing territory and number of camps. In addition, food was not the sole crisis in the camp; Belsen, overwhelmed by incoming inmates, already saw a typhus epidemic - in February 1945, when the monthly death toll jumped from 1,200 to over 6,000. This snapshot is indicative of what was happening in Belsen in 1945 leading up to the camp's liberation.

In his book on the death marches, Daniel Blatman details how Belsen commandant Kramer appealed to Glucks of the WVHA for support in doing something about the conditions in the camp - when it was too late, when the self-imposed problems of Reich KL and labor policy had imploded, in March 1945, again prior to the Allied liberation of B-B - as the camp was in uncontrolled meltdown; Kramer wrote (p 133):

The consequence [of the increase in camp population] is that all barracks are overcrowded by 30 per cent. The detainees cannot lie down to sleep. . . . In addition to this question, a spotted fever and typhus epidemic has now begun, which increases in extent every day. The daily mortality rate, which was still in the region of 60-70 at the beginning of February, has in the meantime attained a daily average of 250-300 and will still further increase in view of the conditions which at present prevail.[i/] [italics added] . . . The number of sick has greatly increased, particularly on account of the transports, which have arrived from the east in recent times - these transports have sometimes spent eight to fourteen days in open trucks. An improvement in their condition, and particularly a return of those detainees to work, is under present conditions quite out of the question. The sick here gradually pine away till they die of weakness of the heart and general debility. . . . One can best gain an idea of the conditions of transports when I state that on one occasion, out a transport of 1,900 detainees, over 500 arrived dead. The fight against the spotted fever is made exactly difficult by the lack of means of disinfection. . . .

Kramer was protesting, in essence, that he'd signed up for murderous exploitation of prisoners - not for complete, rampant anarchy. His plea to Glucks sounds so much like what you deniers call Greuelpropaganda that no further comment is needed except this: note that Kramer warned Glucks that prisoner deaths "will still further increase in view of the conditions which at present prevail"; this development is precisely what happened following liberation - deaths continued and increased despite emergency, medical efforts on the part of the Allies.

As Kramer predicted, the increased mortality of March-April 1945 was an inevitable result of the conditions that the Nazis had created at B-B by late winter 1945 - it had nothing to do with the Allied victory and takeover of camps, Allied bombing, etc.

At the time of Kramer's appeal to Glucks, with the war lost for Germany and no way out, the Reich's leadership was basically lost on what to do - and orders/guidelines across the camp system and Reich were in as much chaos as was B-B itself. On the one hand, the time-honored approach was to kill off prisoners via work and to get rid of the unfit among the inmates; at the same time, Himmler now wanted masses of prisoners to figure in his attempts to bargain with the allies - so to some extent Kramer’s warnings were an alert to Himmler. Himmler’s response showed the confusion into which the RFSS himself had fallen: on 19 March 1945 he had Pohl (does you even know who Pohl was?) visit the camp. Pohl, a somewhat hardened individual, one might say, was appalled; still, he denied Kramer’s request to stop sending in prisoners from around the KL system so that overcrowding might be somewhat alleviated. In short, chaos and high mortality would be encouraged from the very top - sending in more prisoners was a guaranteed death sentence for 1000s. Indeed, as noted, on 10 April a transport of 15,000 men from the “miracle weapons” factories at Dora was brought in - so bad was the crowding in B-B that these men had to be “housed” at the nearby Panzer training school, mentioned by Nessie in a different context.

Pohl, however, did make a change in course. One purpose of B-B, long before its role-shift in late 1944 to terminus camp, was to house “exchange Jews” whom Himmler hoped to trade to the Allies for German internees or hard currency. Nursing hopes of a grand and final stand, supported by V-2 rockets and hostage Jews, even while bargaining for peace with western Allies, Himmler had Pohl remove about 7,000 “exchange Jews” from B-B. Clearly, allowing these poker chips to languish and disintegrate in his hell-house at B-B would ruin their value - so the RFSS, chasing chimeras and approaching the apocalypse, intended to get his "exchange Jews" somewhere safer than B-B - namely, Theresienstadt.

Pohl and Kramer ordered the 7,000 Jews disinfected and had them loaded onto three trains in early April. Due to Allied bombing and the course of the war, the trains were constantly re-routed, forced to make detours, etc - and before reaching their destination were intercepted by Allied forces.

During these weeks, the Third Reich government was comprehensively dysfunctional, with factions, like Himmler’s, working at odds with one another; Himmler himself was working behind the Führer’s back to save, he hoped, his own neck with the Allies. It appears that Hitler, equally as unrealistic as Himmler, wanted to prevent camp inmates from falling into the hands of the Allied armies and was willing to slaughter them before the enemy got to them. Himmler’s goals, which included the far-fetched idea of an agreement with the western Allies against the Soviets, to be fed by deals for Jews and the like, worked in a contrary direction: showing himself suddenly responsible, Himmler now sought to keep inmates in the KL system alive. Thus, by April Himmler had appointed Kurt Becher (who in 1944 had worked on deals that brought Kastner Jews to B-B) his special commissar for Jewish and political prisoners.

But the Reich's position, and Himmler's room for maneuver - from the military situation to the situation in the camps - had gone to hell by April 1945. Still, in his new capacity Becher visited B-B on 10 April. Kramer convinced him that the situation in B-B was hopeless - typhus remained epidemic, food was in short supply, water was scarcely available, medical care was impossible - and 100s of prisoners were dying each day. Basically, Becher threw in the proverbial towel, as he and Kramer decided to surrender B-B forthwith.

Neither Allied food policy at liberation (nor Allied bombing, another famous denier canard) is a central driver of these events. What happened at B-B was grotesque beyond even these appalling calamities. Arguing that the special conditions of B-B were somehow brought about by the Allies is disingenuous or ignorant. Or another vapid apology for the continent-wide devastation brought about by the Nazi heroes of revisionism.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Instead of recalling all these quotes and looking like an cut and paster, why dont you to listen to one of Loftus talks and maybe you could come back and have an intelligent conversation. Elizabeth Loftus would have been perfect at the Zundel trial of ANY Holocaust trial. but the problem is she feared her own Jews because she knew she would be put out of business by the talk that would follow.

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The concept of recovered memory, critiqued by Loftus, is different to survivor testimony, memoirs, etc. Why don't you deal with what several of us have pointed out - this difference?

 

[LemmyCaution]

His testimony is nonsense. Real honest court cases by reputable courts and honorable people would throw this court case out on its ear if they heard all these words using the word exaggerated, inaccurate blah blah blah. Gringuaz would be in heaven dealing with Her steins lies. He may even would have used this quote:
“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”

Wow, got context now.....

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The context is in part Gringauz's conclusion that the ghettos were part of the process of annihilation of the Jews, a condition imposed on them by the Germans and yet Jews maintained their daily lives, or, to use Gringauz's words, in the ghettos the Germans' "outside rule became identified with a policy of total annihilation while internal autonomy reached the level of a full-fledged community. This again is not a matter of exploring direct outside interference but of exploring the adjustment of the ghetto to an environment of hostile outside rule." Gringauz wrote about life in the ghettos, having stipulated to the policy of annihilation imposed by the outside force, the German occupier. You keep skipping this part.

Further, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, post-war recollections of victims is not the main way we know about Holocaust - how on earth does Gringauz's caution about victim recollection about their ghetto experiences apply to German documents, contemporaneous witness reports, perpetrator testimonies, and all the other types of evidence Nick Terry, Degeneve, and I have posted about?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Wow, those Jews were dropping like flies even after the 6million was reached. Gee in a few more years It could have gone to a billion..lol

Apparently you've decided simply to ignore all the material posted showing that DianeKayKing's post is full of false claims. Easier not to deal with that which is unpleasant for your biases?

 

[LemmyCaution]

They we Jews....

If you meant to say "They were Jews," not in the case of the Polish Underground, no, they were not Jews. It might improve your chances here were you to even modestly acquaint yourself with some of the historical topics you wade into . . .

 

[LemmyCaution]

What you just posted you can post for people that believe in UFOs

The problem with your whole Holohoax stories is you don't have a Smoking Gun you don't have the bullets and you don't have the ammunition You talk about gas Chambers but the gas Chambers they show you don't have any that blue pigment that proves zyklon-B used in those gas Chambers the only gas chambers that have zyklon-b are the ones that were used in the fumigation Chambers you people totally misinterpret evidence and then you want to believe that the final solution,( deportation) doesn't mean what it says but It meant execution, complete nonsense.

Why if the holohoax is so true why is there so much falsehoods? The Jews to soap, the Lampshades, the gas Chambers why is there so much falsehoods?

And of course enough lies to get this quote from my friend Gringuaz" For those new here...

“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”
–Samuel Gringauz, “Jewish Social Studies” (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65

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Not only do you repeat your misunderstanding of how historians come to understand the past (they don't look for a smoking gun but develop narratives and explanations for all the evidence that exists) but every claim you make is simply false (there were indeed in Birkenau gas chambers traces of Zyklon B consistent with their use to murder people - http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-04.html, http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/affweb.pdf), "Jews to soap" is not an argument used by scholars to prove anything and in fact has been systematically debunked by Holocaust scholar Joachim Neander, ditto rumors about lampshades (discussed perviously in this thread) - and again you misuse Gringauz's words.

 

[Ivanesca]

The concept of recovered memory, critiqued by Loftus, is different to survivor testimony, memoirs, etc. Why don't you deal with what several of us have pointed out - this difference?

Just like his friends, he's dishonest.

 

[Degeneve]

Don't know how to search?

This is far from being 109 countries...

What is always so amazing with deniers is to realize how difficult for them to stick to simple facts. Here 109 locations become 109 countries with no serious check of historical data and facts...

 

[LemmyCaution]

Building their hoax narrative would force them to confront what actually happened. That is, how the US hired Nazis as scientist and spies, and how they loosened the requirements for denazification and allowed ex Nazis to serve in the German government afterwards. How the Russians buried the Holocaust by supressing the Jewish identity of the victims and the anti Jewish nature of the killings. And how the West Germans dragged their heels in prosecuting Nazis and gave them slaps on the wrists. And how they just gave each survivor about 600, 400 or even $100, meaning the "extortion racket" never happened. They want to avoid the reality that there was no hoax.

One major failure of HD (along with the failure on resettlement) is its refusal (inability) to develop out a history of the so-called hoax. With names, dates, places - supported with evidence. Explanations for how so much overwhelming evidence came into existence. Where and when the hoax was developed, and by whom - how scholars, victims, perpetrators across Europe and around the world came to be in on the hoax. A full, narrated history with robust explanation. As it is we are left with a black box, sleight of hand, magic and a few quotations (in this case) from the Bible. It is laughable.

 

[LemmyCaution]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm

You don't know what a country is. Earlier you explained to us that you don't understand context, so we will let that problem pass here, but at least you should find out what constitutes a "country."

 

[turingtest]

Ah. So you are willing to judge what is typical of one faith, but choose to be more discerning about your own?

Odd then that you did not point out that reputable members of the Jewish faith would not wish harm. Odd then that you are even considering the Jewish faith or race as a factor at all.

Blatant "No True Scotsman"; and, as if it wasn't blatant enough to begin with, HD felt the need to actually call attention to it with "notice I said..." (I'll just point out here that "kill them all, god will know his own" wasn't said by a Jew; but then, for all I know, HD may regard that as a perfectly "reputable" Christian approach- the "99.9%" thing suggests so)

Of course, this is the same guy who advanced "Hogan's Heroes" as evidence against the Holocaust, and more or less defined "context" as "when I say something all the time." Which leads me to a question- I'm not real familiar with Holocaust Denial as a CT, but...are these folks (HD, JR, and DKK) really the best, or even representative, of the movement? Because if they are, that may be all I really need to know about it.

Will HD give us a fully formed alternate theory to best explain the totality of the evidence? Or is "denier" all too apt, in place of actual discussion?

No, he won't; I believe he's specifically disavowed any need to. As usual with CTists, the idea seems to be to define "research" as leading with a conclusion and supporting it with disconnected "gotchas!"