General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Border Reiver]

Are you talking about the Soviet Union that did the same thing...

No complaints about what they did? Germany had reason to go into Poland what was the Soviets reason....Nice stroll through the neighborhood...LOL



JR

As part of their agreement with the Nazis, and after the Germans had occupied over half of Poland.

The Soviets were dealing with the only country that would deal with them - Nazi Germany. The U.K. And France had refused offers of alliances with the Soviets that the Soviets wanted to secure their western borders while they were dealing with the Japanese, so The Soviets went with the only game in town.


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[LemmyCaution]

. . . (148 books and collections; 97 in English) 221,641

As I said, this is just a sample of what is out there.

At the risk of lengthening this, ahem, in the past week I finished Wolfgang Seibel, Persecution and Rescue: The Politics of the "Final Solution" in France, 1940-1944 - 944 end notes

So: 149 books, 98 in English, 222,585 notes

 

[LeoMajor]

The jews were the handlers of the judges at the Zundel trial - ADL, JDL B'nai-Brith ALL weighed in on that trial with EXTREMELY SPECIFIC directives and outcomes.

The Canadian Judicial system does not operate at the behest of the ADL, which is an American organization. The Judges of the Zuendel trials operated independently, in accordance with Canadian Law, while being held accountable by the Ontario Court of Appeals, who themselves are held accountable by the Supreme court of Canada.

No please, go on so I can continue to expose your ignorance of Canadian judicial practice and structures.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . The term is Judicial Notice....in other words the court set the standard of what was historically true you couldn't deviate off from it....so if they said 6 million died you better say yes maam....

Except that that isn't how it worked: the IMT accepted many differing claims, the defense was permitted to offer its counterclaims and evidence in support of them, and the tribunal's judgment on the key issues before it was reached in the light of the evidence produced and the contest that occurred during the proceedings between opposing claims.

For those interested, starting here, Matthew Ellard, Nick Terry, and I (posting as Statistical Mechanic) reviewed the concept of "judicial notice" and what it meant at the IMT - and critiqued the Weber article that helped spin up the denier meme/misunderstanding. The discussion continues for a few pages.

 

[LeoMajor]

You're very naive championing the brutal, psychopathic Soviets in their day. It would be FAR easier to find ANYTHING that proves they were honorable or humane, because IT DIDN'T EXIST.

It is a matter of fact that the Soviets were awful, almost comically incompetent forgers. Their antics with Katyn were detected from the proverbial get-go as were their alterations of photos related to the Moscow Trials.

The Himmler diaries are absolutely authentic, we know this because they have been languishing in the archives for seven decades. Had they been forged they would have been produced at the IMT and been debunked there.

I will point out to you that actual forgeries, like the "Lachoute Report" and the "T47" doc from Dresden were debunked immediately. These things are not as insidious as you think, they are pretty damn obvious to be honest. Oh, and they tend to come from deniers almost always.

 

[LeoMajor]

Quote from HoloHuxster.....You are lying. And you've repeated a lie that has already been called out

Maybe I'm missing something wasn't it the Soviets that came up with the original 4 million figure of deaths at Auschwitz.....LOL
Ooooops!
Back to the fake document drawing board....

JR

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong and Wrong again and again and again.

The 4 million figure was derived as a result of inaccurate calculations by a commission, not by a document.

 

[LeoMajor]

Provoked by Polish atrocities against the Ethnic Germans to the tune of 50,000 murdered. Our country doesn't even need THAT much provocation. Some Israeli soldier stubs his toe and they declare war on Iran. Hitler had cause.

1. Hitler had no cause. He was after Lebansraum, he admitted it himself. Danzig was not the issue. He even staged a false flag attack to start it. 50,000 pfft yeah right.

2. Israel has never declared war on Iran. And we don't like Netanyauhu.

 

[LeoMajor]

Are you talking about the Soviet Union that did the same thing...No complaints about what they did? Germany had reason to go into Poland what was the Soviets reason....Nice stroll through the neighborhood...LOL

JR

The Soviets didn't invade Luxembourg! What coloring books have you been reading!!?!!?!?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Every word is wrong. Lemkin was not the first to expose the Nazi genocide, in fact he can be seen as one of the later ones to point it out. The first ones to bring the world's attention to the unfolding Holocaust was the Polish Resistance, and various Jewish groups in Occupied Poland, two sets of organizations that were acrimonious in regards to their conduct with each other and would have surely never "conspired" in any way together.

The Allies, after receiving reports during summer 1942 from underground activists in Poland (which resulted in a BBC broadcast mentioned 700,000 Jews murdered), issued a declaration, known as the Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations Against Extermination of the Jews, on 17 December 1942, which read in part:

the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe. From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported, in conditions of appalling horror and brutality, to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettoes established by the German invaders are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labour camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.

This was a major policy statement of the Allies and by focusing on it I do not mean to ignore the many, many press reports and other statements made during 1942 and 1943 about the extermination and other persecution of the Jews by Germany and its allies.

There's basically not one accurate point in DianeKayKing's post.

 

[LeoMajor]

Fail, again. Once again, I'm driving a Trans-am listening to Warrant. Try to stay current. This is from IHR so it should be OK:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n1p20_provan.html

Warrant? Come on man!!!! Listen to good Rock n' Roll!

 

[LemmyCaution]

The jews were the handlers of the judges at the Zundel trial - ADL, JDL B'nai-Brith ALL weighed in on that trial with EXTREMELY SPECIFIC directives and outcomes.

An accurate summary of the Zündel case is here. I notice that in one of his posts Jim Rizoli also botches the issues in the Zündel case.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I could provide a direct quote to anything denying the HoloHoax....like your going to accept it...LOL

Try us, I dare you to. Because if you don't, you are just making assumptions - and because we are going to keep asking for your sources, and excuses like this one and the others you offer don't cut it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Naive Ivanesca AND bad manners. Continued...

"Many documents were prepared over the years in the event that they might be needed for a future propaganda assault and then left secure in Soviet archives. In addition to these activities, the KGB experts also concocting material proving that many American prisoners of war remained in Vietnam after the American withdrawal, and Mr. Morris, an American historian, was taken in by these as period articles in the New York Times show. Also produced was a series of badly forged papers proving that US citizen, John Demjanjuk, was a notorious German concentration camp guard, which was exposed in U.S. Federal Court proceedings in Virginia. Both of these projects were eventually exposed as frauds, but the problems they engendered during their brief life span were monumental."

Citation for quotation?

Without any evidence for these assertions, they are just that - assertions without evidence. I don't believe them. Show me the evidence that will convince me I should.

Do you plan to reply to or keep ignoring the strong arguments made against your claims by Nick Terry?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Well, Jim, at least you didn't say 4 million Jews. I guess that is progress.

The Soviets made the mistake in thinking the mass murder started in 1940 when the camp opened. They also thought that transports ran all of the time, they calculated the "4 million" on the cremation capacity. This is incorrect but many early scholars challenged the "4 million" number, Reitlinger being the most prominent. Hoess himself gave a number that was spot on.

It is also not a forgery; it is a misinterpretation. Which was long ago taken to task.

 

[LeoMajor]

You KNOW, Jeff, that Hitler KNEW he'd have to deal with the communists eventually. This was a mere attempt to circumvent (as I said before) an unnecessary war over STUPID POLAND. Hitler had made numerous overtures of peace to England, and THEY WOULD HAVE NONE OF IT ... that warmongering Churchill!!!!

Poland knew that the Germans wanted their land, so they decided to make a stand against their tyrannical neighbors. Britain decided to side with the country under attack. German plans for Poland were genocidal in nature. You talk about the USSR but you and I both know that Hitler and Stalin were allies at this time. I can find no better example of good vs. evil than the decision to combat the Nazi war machine.

 

[HDenier]

Its okay we understand your need to not face the reality of your basic error.

LOL x 2

A normal person having made your mistake would have:

'Oh I see my mistakes, thanks for the correction.' However, a person like yourself would do what you are doing above. Will that work? Not at all, would the first method work? Absolutely it does all the time.



One is honest one is not.

I don't see the mistake...you actually helped my course dramatically. When I combine Gringuaz with the false memories it fits together perfectly, and just think, if it wasn't for you guys I would have never made the connection...

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[HDenier]

I read the whole article. It puts your silly attempt to use Gringauz to shame.

Quite the contrary. The False Memory people need to use Gringuaz views in their papers. I hope they do...

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[LemmyCaution]

Quite the contrary. The False Memory people need to use Gringuaz views in their papers. I hope they do...

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Good old Gringauz, using his proposed methodology,

wrote of the ghettos that in them "the conditions were . . . determined by a policy of persecution, defamation and annihilation." According to Gringauz, his methodology showed that "the ghetto [was] one of the forms of mass destruction in the great Jewish catastrophe of 1939-45, which initiated the liquidation of the East-European era of Jewish history." ("The Ghetto as an Experiment of Jewish Social Organization" in Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1, Jan., 1949, pp. 3-20).

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised to see these guys praising Gringauz to the skies. It just shows that it helps to actually read what you cite. But whatever.

Yup, something we can agree on.

 

[Ivanesca]

Quite the contrary. The False Memory people need to use Gringuaz views in their papers. I hope they do...

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You're not listening. Dr. Loftus' research was about "implanted" or manufactured memories, created by dubious therapies. Witnesses to the Holocaust- either perpetrators or survivors- gave their statements of their own free will, based on their own experiences, and without prodding. Thus, your blethering about "false memories" do not apply.

 

[HDenier]

I *accept* the quotation you've used from Gringauz, I think that's what you wanted to say - and in fact a number of us have explained to you what Gringauz is actually focused on and how he approaches his study of the conditions and responses of Jews who were forced into ghettos.

Perhaps, as an expert on Gringauz, you'd summarize now for us your interpretation of his 1949 and 1950 papers and state in your own words what he was saying about ghetto life.

That sometimes personal experience can sometimes generate feelings of high EMOTION saying things or blowing things way worse than they were. That's why the quote fits perfectly the whole ghetto narrative for some...and the Holohoax narrative also which you all seem to say is ALL part of the holohoax story... Gringuaz's comments hit the nail on the head about people and their emotions in unpleasant situation. Good for him...I have a lot of respect for his insight...and truthfullness

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