JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[Tomtomkent]

Oh no... Somebody didn't really cite JFK moving back and to the left as evidence?

Again?

Ok kids, join in with the list:

1) He moves forwards first.
2) He isn't knocked back by the bullet.
3) Why is all that ejecta flowing TOWARDS the apparent shooter?
4) What happens when JFK falls forwards as far as his back brace allows, what way does he fall then?

 

[MicahJava]

Oh no... Somebody didn't really cite JFK moving back and to the left as evidence?

Again?

Ok kids, join in with the list:

1) He moves forwards first.
2) He isn't knocked back by the bullet.
3) Why is all that ejecta flowing TOWARDS the apparent shooter?
4) What happens when JFK falls forwards as far as his back brace allows, what way does he fall then?

I was fully prepared to accept that Kennedy moved forward first, however I can see the point in saying that this may actually be an optical illusion caused by the frame blurring.

https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi

Download the high-quality cropped Zapruder frames here and alternate between frame 312 and frame 313. You will see the unique way in which frame 313 blurs: The glares from the limousine get stretched, Connolly turns into a football head, Kellerman's sideburns get pulled back, and the creases in Jackie's clothing become wider. It could be that the forward head movement might be an illusion.

You could make the argument that the Orville Nix film shows Kennedy's head moving forward at frame 23, however this might actually make a better equivalent match for Z314 where Kennedy's head leans significantly to the left. Download Orville Nix frames here: http://hdblenner.com/nixframes.htm

Also, the Zapruder film shows debris being shot in all directions. We know that blood and other matter was blown backwards from other facts from the day, like people in the motorcade being hit with blood.

 

[HSienzant]

The evidence for a shooter in that area? A loud noise,

I thought you were suggesting a silenced weapon?

a puff of smoke

There were steam pipes running along that fence.

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?
Mr. WEITZMAN - I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr. BALL - What is the location of that wall?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section?
Mr. BALL - That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.
Mr. BALL - Did you go into the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you notice in the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.

Kennedy's head and body moving back and to the left

You're back to assuming what you must prove.
There have been at least four different possibilities for what causes JFK's head to move backwards:

(a) Neuromuscular reaction.
(b) Jet effect
(c) Chin compressed against chest, rebounds back
(d) Gunshot from right front.

Tell me how you eliminated the first three and decided on the fourth, especially since there's no evidence of damage to the head from a shot from the right-front

debris from Kennedy's head being thrown back

What debris? The Zapruder film shows a massive explosion coming out the right front of the head, and debris being blown forward (including what most likely is the Harper fragment, which was found forward of the President's limo at Z313).

perhaps the people who smelled gunpower should be included as well

Not sure why you would want to count that... a rifle expels the gasses from the barrel at almost the speed of the bullet.

When you have powerful stuff like that, I am not too bothered that nobody (except Ed Hoffman

Hoffman came forward for the first time on record how many years after the assassination?

and the possibility of Lee Bowers) claimed to see an actual gunman.

Bowers never said anything about seeing a gunman.

Nobody -- but NOBODY -- came forward on 11/22/63 and said they saw a gunman on the knoll or anywhere except the TSBD.

And where's the physical evidence of this gunman? Or the Dal-Tex one you conjectured?

Hank

PS: You have the circle in the wrong spot for the man shooting from the storm drain. It should be further to the right, where the fence meets the overpass (under that last tree to the right and behind the fence). The circled location doesn't correspond to the storm drain location.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/tPv54FB.jpg[/qimg]

 

[HSienzant]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12

The piece of curb was examined in 1983 and the area struck by the bullet/fragment and was proven to be smoothed over with some kind of crack sealant.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove response to moderated content

You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank

 

[Tomtomkent]

I was fully prepared to accept that Kennedy moved forward first, however I can see the point in saying that this may actually be an optical illusion caused by the frame blurring.

https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi

Download the high-quality cropped Zapruder frames here and alternate between frame 312 and frame 313. You will see the unique way in which frame 313 blurs: The glares from the limousine get stretched, Connolly turns into a football head, Kellerman's sideburns get pulled back, and the creases in Jackie's clothing become wider. It could be that the forward head movement might be an illusion.

You could make the argument that the Orville Nix film shows Kennedy's head moving forward at frame 23, however this might actually make a better equivalent match for Z314 where Kennedy's head leans significantly to the left. Download Orville Nix frames here: http://hdblenner.com/nixframes.htm

Also, the Zapruder film shows debris being shot in all directions. We know that blood and other matter was blown backwards from other facts from the day, like people in the motorcade being hit with blood.

Unless you are about to explain how a bullet can suck that massive cloud of ejecta towards your imaginary shooter, what we can see is JFK being blasted back by the pressure of the ejecta. Which means a shot from begin, not the front.

 

[Tomtomkent]

And there's the name-calling. You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank

Well... Perhaps he could show us the patching material in the colour photograph, along with his analysis to show he mark is projecting outwards rather than inwards....

 

[HSienzant]

There was no shot before Z190 because almost no witness said anything that could reasonably be interpreted to that affect.

Almost no witness? So some did?

Anybody who argues a first missed shot before Z190 will notice that Kennedy is obviously smiling and waving at that time.

That would eliminate a first-shot HIT, but not a first shot MISS.

Wouldn't it?

No witness ever said that Kennedy was smiling and waving moments after the first loud shot.

No witness?

There is some photographic evidence for Kennedy reacting to something around Z190. The HSCA photographic panel report detailed it, and more info can be seen in this paper: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weis... Disk/Journal of Forensic Science/Item 01.pdf

Yes, and that doesn't eliminate a missed shot a couple of seconds before that, that JFK is uncertain was a shot. So, after hearing that shot, he stops waving and assesses the situation. Then he starts to wave again, apparently dismissing that noise as a firecracker, not an assassination attempt. Many witnesses thought the first shot sounded like a firecracker. We will never know if JFK was among them.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

I thought you were suggesting a silenced weapon?

I can not simply deny the 40% of witnesses who heard a loud shot in that area, however I will acknowledge that shooting a loud rifle from near the pergola would be unlikely for a professional to do.

There were steam pipes running along that fence.

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?
Mr. WEITZMAN - I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr. BALL - What is the location of that wall?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section?
Mr. BALL - That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.
Mr. BALL - Did you go into the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you notice in the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.

Omg, that crap. The steam pipes were over 100 feet from the area where the witnesses said the smoke was, and such smoke was never seen there again. At least you're not just automatically saying they were mistaken!

You're back to assuming what you must prove.
There have been at least four different possibilities for what causes JFK's head to move backwards:

(a) Neuromuscular reaction.
(b) Jet effect
(c) Chin compressed against chest, rebounds back
(d) Gunshot from right front.

Tell me how you eliminated the first three and decided on the fourth, especially since there's no evidence of damage to the head from a shot from the right-front

With the neuromuscular reaction, it must be acknowledged that this could not be a final dying spasm because Kennedy did not technically die at the headshot. With the jet-effect, this has not been demonstrated well experimentally, and the physics have been criticized (also, the evidence for a brief forward head movement must be ignored, because the jet-effect should take place at the instant the exit wound is made). The only hypothesis that really interests me is his chin bouncing off of his chest. The backwards head movement must be considered along with other evidence.

What debris? The Zapruder film shows a massive explosion coming out the right front of the head, and debris being blown forward (including what most likely is the Harper fragment, which was found forward of the President's limo at Z313).

If you download the high-quality Zapruder film frames, the red "mist" is sprayed in all directions. The blood splatter emanating from the head wound is ambiguous. It is also known through other information that debris was sprayed back.

Not sure why you would want to count that... a rifle expels the gasses from the barrel at almost the speed of the bullet.

What?

Hoffman came forward for the first time on record how many years after the assassination?

Who knows, he could be lying.

Bowers never said anything about seeing a gunman.

Some people who knew Bowers told other researchers that Bowers was intimidated into not talking about everything he saw. Even if you don't believe them, Bowers himself said that he knew there was some kind of occurrence in the grassy knoll area (in front or behind the fence).

Nobody -- but NOBODY -- came forward on 11/22/63 and said they saw a gunman on the knoll or anywhere except the TSBD.

And where's the physical evidence of this gunman? Or the Dal-Tex one you conjectured?

I already linked to physical evidence of additional gunmen, as well as physical evidence that physical evidence of additional gunmen was covered up.

 

[HSienzant]

Although there were parking spots which could block the view of someone standing at the overpass, I'll say that I won't count on there being anybody shooting from the sewer itself.

Or hiding in the sewer? Or being behind the fence and shooting?

Where's the HARD, PHYSICAL evidence for a shooter on the knoll?

Any shells seen or found? No.
Any weapon seen or found? No.
Any shooter seen or found? No.
Any damage to the limo or to a passenger seen or found from the right front? No.
Any bullet or bullet fragments recovered traceable to a weapon other than C2766? No.

You have no evidence.


Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Almost no witness? So some did?

That would eliminate a first-shot HIT, but not a first shot MISS.

Wouldn't it?


No witness?

Yes, and that doesn't eliminate a missed shot a couple of seconds before that, that JFK is uncertain was a shot. So, after hearing that shot, he stops waving and assesses the situation. Then he starts to wave again, apparently dismissing that noise as a firecracker, not an assassination attempt. Many witnesses thought the first shot sounded like a firecracker. We will never know if JFK was among them.

Hank

If you can provide eyewitness evidence of a first missed shot, please do tell. What many use as examples are actually better fitted to describing the Z190-224 shot.

 

[MicahJava]

And there's the name-calling. You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank

Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.

You have no evidence of it being filled. Nor evidence for the motivation of doing so. You can't even explain why the mark is unfilled in the photograph you posted.

 

[MicahJava]

You have no evidence of it being filled. Nor evidence for the motivation of doing so. You can't even explain why the mark is unfilled in the photograph you posted.

The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.

 

[HSienzant]

Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.

You keep assuming what you need to prove.

Your argument does not improve with repetition you know.

You still need evidence. Assumptions don't cut it.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.

Post the conclusions of Fernandez and show how that's the only possibility. Even he admitted there were other possibilities.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Can you cite a proven instance (outside of the St. Valentine's massacre or similar criminal acts) of multiple shooters on a single target?

2nd bolded? all other witnesses to a crime got out of here alive?

Well, on second thought, maybe the murders thing is real.

Mark Lane was just eliminated a month or so ago, if you recall.

Ruthless, heartless, bastards.

Hank

 

[Tomtomkent]

The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.

As has been pointed out, you keep quoting something that does not prove this, nor can you prove it was to "obscure evidence".

But why does it matter what somebody claimed, you posted a photo of the kerbstone in which the "paving over" (which is an odd term to use when describe the stone being filled, not paved over by more stones) is absent.

It's just "too crazy" to have the obvious pointed out?

 

[Axxman300]

I can not simply deny the 40% of witnesses who heard a loud shot in that area, however I will acknowledge that shooting a loud rifle from near the pergola would be unlikely for a professional to do.

Because the event occurred in Dealey Plaza you have to push ear-witness testimony way to the back. The place has an incredible echo, and what people heard depended on where they stood, and sound there changes in a matter of feet in either direction.

You have to work backward from the wounds of the President and Governor, and the physical evidence found in the Depository. The evidence says 3 shots from the 6th floor, with two strikes from that weapon. If there was a second gunman he missed, and the bullet presumably vanished into another dimension.

 

[BazBear]

Well, on second thought, maybe the murders thing is real.

Mark Lane was just eliminated a month or so ago, if you recall.

Ruthless, heartless, bastards.

Hank

The CIA Mafia Fidel Castro Soviet Union LBJ Future Farmers of America do their evil-doing in slow, mysterious ways!

 

[HSienzant]

Not responsive to the questions asked.

Here they are again:

Yeah. Remember when I asked before if you could spot why that might not be conclusive? Look again at the photo. Show me how you conclude it is filled in. Explain why it is still visible. Think about why freshly broken stone or cement darkens over time...

I think you are seeing what you want to see in your photos. I think you may not notice something about the angles of the photos.... And even in a black and white photo, the shade of the mark...


Want to try again?