JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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HSienzant said:
Great. Now you post the names of the Dealey Plaza witnesses who came forward on 11/22/63 to say they say a sniper rifle near the sewer location you identified.

You have none.

Hank
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I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot. Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing, but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.

EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
 
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Border Reiver said:
Given that the patch was looked at 20 years after the incident, how is that indicative of anything?

Curbs get replaced and repaired all the time. Not fixing the chip by 1983 would be indicative of poor repair practices in the Dallas Civic works department, not a criminal desire to cover up evidence.
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The curbstone was removed on August 4, 1964. The chip would have been visually no different from any other tiny chip on a sidewalk, but some shills filled it with crack sealant because they were worried it wouldn't fit with their story. This is historical fact.
 
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MicahJava said:
I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot. Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing, but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.

EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
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Can you cite a proven instance (outside of the St. Valentine's massacre or similar criminal acts) of multiple shooters on a single target?

2nd bolded? all other witnesses to a crime got out of here alive?
 
MicahJava said:
I see what you mean, it would be pretty close, however there were trees and parked cars which may have clocked the view of anyone standing there.
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Nope, guess again. That storm drain is at the place where the Grassy Knoll wooden fence meets the concrete overpass. There were no intervening trees or parked cars between the men on the overpass and that corner in 1963.

Again, Lee Bowers was behind your supposed assassin, twelve railroad workers were on the overpass to his right, a police office was on the south side of that overpass (to his right back - behind the railroad workers) and two parking lot attendants were to his left.

Go to this site to see your storm drain location from the other side of the fence: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.778...4!1ssnW7YSZlqCyYuAUPE3HV3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an overhead map taken shortly after the assassination (click on the "2" balloon). Your sniper location is located at the point along the fence nearest the "C" within the circled area.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/d...ssassination-interactive-infographic-20953305

Here's a 3D interactive model of Dealey Plaza.
https://sketchfab.com/models/6d7e22cb0968419482cfddc092c80e54

Anyone shooting from near the ground at that storm drain is shooting through tree trunks and shrubbery at Z313. I've been there. I've stood in that sewer.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
What?
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I thought it was perfectly clear.

You seem to be assuming *patch* means to cover with something.

It doesn't only mean that. It also means a specific spot, like in "this barren patch of earth where my dog constantly urinates". Are you arguing the "patch" above is covered with something to conceal it's bereft of grass?

But you seem to think every reference to *patch* means it was covered with something in an attempt to conceal.

You haven't established that. In fact, you appear to be assuming exactly what you need to prove.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patch

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.
The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
The curb has a patch where a bullet or bullet fragment appeared to hit it.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
Okay, I'll repeat myself. If you accidentally take a picture on the camera you're holding as a startle response to a loud gunshot, that's the kind of thing that would make a distinct impression on a person's mind. It would be unlikely for someone to fabricate such a memory. So Willis Slide 5 is good evidence for a loud shot before Z224.
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How much of a reaction time did Willis have? What's the objective evidence for that? Unlikely is not impossible. Unlikely is your subjective opinion.

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Nope, guess again. That storm drain is at the place where the Grassy Knoll wooden fence meets the concrete overpass. There were no intervening trees or parked cars between the men on the overpass and that corner in 1963.

Again, Lee Bowers was behind your supposed assassin, twelve railroad workers were on the overpass to his right, a police office was on the south side of that overpass (to his right back - behind the railroad workers) and two parking lot attendants were to his left.

Go to this site to see your storm drain location from the other side of the fence: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.778...4!1ssnW7YSZlqCyYuAUPE3HV3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an overhead map taken shortly after the assassination (click on the "2" balloon). Your sniper location is located at the point along the fence nearest the "C" within the circled area.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/d...ssassination-interactive-infographic-20953305

Here's a 3D interactive model of Dealey Plaza.
https://sketchfab.com/models/6d7e22cb0968419482cfddc092c80e54

Anyone shooting from near the ground at that storm drain is shooting through tree trunks and shrubbery at Z313. I've been there. I've stood in that sewer.

Hank
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Although there were parking spots which could block the view of someone standing at the overpass, I'll say that I won't count on there being anybody shooting from the sewer itself.
 
MicahJava said:
I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot.
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Except that location is particularly horrendous. As it turns out, a shooter there doesn't have a shot until after the assassination was over. And what's the evidence for a shooter conspirator AND a firecracker conspirator?

None, right?


MicahJava said:
Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing,
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And two police officers - J.W.Foster and J.C.White
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/foster.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0394a.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm

Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL - What are they?
Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER - All right.
(off the record)
Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Now, on November22. 1963, did you have an assignment?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.


MicahJava said:
... but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.
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You'd need cars on every side of the assassin. Because he was surrounded by potential witnesses to his right, left, and back.


MicahJava said:
EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
Click to expand...

And there's that RED HERRING again.

You can't justify everything by just switching subjects every time you're asked for evidence to justify your claims. And what witnesses on the overpass were killed to keep them quiet? Or other witnesses for that matter?

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
The curbstone was removed on August 4, 1964. The chip would have been visually no different from any other tiny chip on a sidewalk, but some shills filled it with crack sealant because they were worried it wouldn't fit with their story. This is historical fact.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. You're assuming what you need to prove.

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.

The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.

There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.

This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.

The curb has a patch where a bullet had apparently struck it.

Hank
 
MicahJava said:
Snipers forming a triangle on one target is a military tactic.

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP 3-11.3 Scouting and Patrolling.pdf

The TSBD, the Dal-Tex, and the grassy knoll form a triangle.
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Great! Thanks.

I'll provide the evidence of a weapon and shells found in the TSBD, and cite the witnesses who came forward on 11/22/63 to claim they saw a rifle or a man with a rifle in the TSBD. I'll also cite the evidence that this weapon fired the bullets that struck JFK twice, and Connally once. Or you can save me the trouble and say you're aware of that evidence.

Will you cite the evidence of weapons and name the witnesses that saw these men/weapons & cite the evidence that these other supposed shooters struck anything in Dealey Plaza? And left behind ANY evidence of their existence? Anything at all?

Hank
 
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JayUtah said:
That's essentially my argument. When one visits this public space and walks around it to investigate the various hypotheses, one comes away distinctly believing either that those authors have never been to the plaza or that they intend their theories for people who have never been there. Nearly all these alternate hypotheses require people to act in secret in circumstances where they would be easily detected.
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I would add to this accurate statement the fact that professionals (Special Forces, black-ops types of the day, Mafia hitmen, etc) would never take the risk of shooting from the Grassy Knoll, or the drain (stupidest idea ever) or one of the other buildings except for their roof-tops. Ballistics and forensics shows that didn't happen.
 
MicahJava said:
What's the difference? The picture was taken before Z224.
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You're the one arguing that there was no earlier shot when you first got here, I thought.

MicahJava said:
I think anybody would come to realize that there was no "first missed shot". I used to accept it, until I read this summary of the eyewitness accounts which show that the first shot had to come at around Zapruder frame 190-224.
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So you think there was a shot somewhere between 190-202, accounting for Willis' photo?

Can you tell us your thinking there -- how did you determine Willis' reaction times objectively, for example, and how you narrowed down the first shot to no earlier than Zapruder frame 190?

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Except that location is particularly horrendous. As it turns out, a shooter there doesn't have a shot until after the assassination was over. And what's the evidence for a shooter conspirator AND a firecracker conspirator?

None, right?




And two police officers - J.W.Foster and J.C.White
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/foster.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0394a.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm

Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL - What are they?
Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER - All right.
(off the record)
Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Now, on November22. 1963, did you have an assignment?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.




You'd need cars on every side of the assassin. Because he was surrounded by potential witnesses to his right, left, and back.




And there's that RED HERRING again.

You can't justify everything by just switching subjects every time you're asked for evidence to justify your claims. And what witnesses on the overpass were killed to keep them quiet? Or other witnesses for that matter?

Hank
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The evidence for a shooter in that area? A loud noise, a puff of smoke, Kennedy's head and body moving back and to the left, debris from Kennedy's head being thrown back, perhaps the people who smelled gunpower should be included as well. When you have powerful stuff like that, I am not too bothered that nobody (except Ed Hoffman and the possibility of Lee Bowers) claimed to see an actual gunman.
 
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HSienzant said:
No, it's not. You're assuming what you need to prove.

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.

The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.

There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.

This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.

The curb has a patch where a bullet had apparently struck it.

Hank
Click to expand...

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
The piece of curb was examined in 1983 and the area struck by the bullet/fragment and was proven to be smoothed over with some kind of crack sealant. I copypasta'd the proof earlier in the thread.
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
 
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HSienzant said:
You're the one arguing that there was no earlier shot when you first got here, I thought.

So you think there was a shot somewhere between 190-202, accounting for Willis' photo?

Can you tell us your thinking there -- how did you determine Willis' reaction times objectively, for example, and how you narrowed down the first shot to no earlier than Zapruder frame 190?

Hank
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There was no shot before Z190 because almost no witness said anything that could reasonably be interpreted to that affect. Anybody who argues a first missed shot before Z190 will notice that Kennedy is obviously smiling and waving at that time. No witness ever said that Kennedy was smiling and waving moments after the first loud shot.

There is some photographic evidence for Kennedy reacting to something around Z190. The HSCA photographic panel report detailed it, and more info can be seen in this paper: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weis... Disk/Journal of Forensic Science/Item 01.pdf
 
MicahJava said:
Snipers forming a triangle on one target is a military tactic.

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP 3-11.3 Scouting and Patrolling.pdf

The TSBD, the Dal-Tex, and the grassy knoll form a triangle.
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No Go - squad tactics in the Corps or other milorgs isn't proof of anything at Dallas, and even the fm you linked to isn't oriented towards sniping.

From your source:

1. PURPOSE

Marine Corps Warfighting Publication (MCWP) 3-11.3, Scouting and Patrolling,
provides the doctrinal foundation and the tactics, techniques, and procedures for scouting and patrolling conducted by Marines from the fire team to the company level.Although the information focuses on infantry units, much of the information is also applicable to combat support units that are assigned patrolling missions.

In the Corps, snipers work as two man teams, and they for sure aren't utilized as fireteams
 
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